Arc-Fault Protection

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al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Then it says an outlet utlizes electric energy.
Think of the simple duplex receptacle in a home. Does the receptacle utilize energy in normal conditions? If it does, doesn't it burn up?

Look again at the words in the definition of Outlet. "Utilize" and "energy" are not there.
 

jwjrw

Senior Member
Think of the simple duplex receptacle in a home. Does the receptacle utilize energy in normal conditions? If it does, doesn't it burn up?

Look again at the words in the definition of Outlet. "Utilize" and "energy" are not there.

definition of an outlet- A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply UTILIZATION equipment. I was trying to rem it without looking it up.
REGUARDLESS a switch is NOT an OUTLET think what you want to but my AHJ says its not and thats all that matters to me! GOOD DAY SIR!!!!:D
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
. . . a switch is NOT an OUTLET. . . my AHJ says its not and thats all that matters to me!
Your AHJ makes the call in your jurisdiction. I'm not trying to get in the way of that.

Similarly, your AHJ is out of his/er jurisdiction here on the Forum. Here, on the Forum, your AHJ has an opinion, as do you, as do I.

Here, we are able to explore our opinions of the Code.
I was trying to rem it without looking it up.
In my opinion, your recollection of the meaning of Outlet is the popular meme, the popular idea. But the definition is only about current taken at a point on the wiring. . . that's a very different animal.

And what makes the DEVICE that is a receptacle in a RECEPTACLE OUTLET (a two-word term from Art. 100 Definitions) different from a DEVICE that is a switch, or for that matter, a DEVICE that is a Luminaire, such as a wall box mounted, cover plate covered P&S TMHWLECC hallway light?

TMHWLECC_1-1.jpg
 

One-eyed Jack

Senior Member
Your AHJ makes the call in your jurisdiction. I'm not trying to get in the way of that.

Similarly, your AHJ is out of his/er jurisdiction here on the Forum. Here, on the Forum, your AHJ has an opinion, as do you, as do I.

Here, we are able to explore our opinions of the Code.
In my opinion, your recollection of the meaning of Outlet is the popular meme, the popular idea. But the definition is only about current taken at a point on the wiring. . . that's a very different animal.

And what makes the DEVICE that is a receptacle in a RECEPTACLE OUTLET (a two-word term from Art. 100 Definitions) different from a DEVICE that is a switch, or for that matter, a DEVICE that is a Luminaire, such as a wall box mounted, cover plate covered P&S TMHWLECC hallway light?

TMHWLECC_1-1.jpg

What he said. I totaly agree with you Al. In these parts a switch is an outlet. If I failed to count switches as outlets I would not get paid for them. My Arc-faulting switch was utilizing electricity in a very destructive manner. :grin:
 

jwjrw

Senior Member
What does what you call it have to do with getting paid for it?


All I will say is I agree with the handbook definition of a device and an outlet. And that is not what you believe it is. There are many on here with more knowledge then I have who agree with me.

REGUARDLESS KITCHENS ARE EXEMPT FROM ARC FAULT.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
All I will say is I agree with the handbook definition of a device and an outlet. And that is not what you believe it is. There are many on here with more knowledge then I have who agree with me.

REGUARDLESS KITCHENS ARE EXEMPT FROM ARC FAULT.

I'm not asking about what the handbook calls it. I'm asking why you need to call it something in particular in order to get paid for it. In other words, you agree with the NECH simply because it has an impact on your bottom line? I don't understand the connection between the two.
 

jwjrw

Senior Member
I'm not asking about what the handbook calls it. I'm asking why you need to call it something in particular in order to get paid for it. In other words, you agree with the NECH simply because it has an impact on your bottom line? I don't understand the connection between the two.

I didnt mean to quote you sorry. It has nothing to do with getting paid. This whole thread got off topic I think......
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
I didnt mean to quote you sorry. It has nothing to do with getting paid. This whole thread got off topic I think......

I think you picked up on someone else's comment.

What he said. I totaly agree with you Al. In these parts a switch is an outlet. If I failed to count switches as outlets I would not get paid for them. My Arc-faulting switch was utilizing electricity in a very destructive manner. :grin:
 

One-eyed Jack

Senior Member
What does what you call it have to do with getting paid for it?

LOL One of my previous employers quoted res.work by the outlet. Plan 89,s and 90,s typically had 55-60 outlets. Every box counted as an outlet. If we did not count it ,no pay.
It is true that the kitchen ,bathroom,and garage have been left out of the list in 210.12 b. Using this list and the word "outlet" are you saying that the lights in the kitchen,bathrooms,and garages are not required to be AFCI protected?
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
LOL One of my previous employers quoted res.work by the outlet. Plan 89,s and 90,s typically had 55-60 outlets. Every box counted as an outlet. If we did not count it ,no pay.
It is true that the kitchen ,bathroom,and garage have been left out of the list in 210.12 b. Using this list and the word "outlet" are you saying that the lights in the kitchen,bathrooms,and garages are not required to be AFCI protected?

Yes, that is exactly what he (and I and many others) are saying. Of course if the bathroom lights are on the same circuit as the hall lights or the kitchen lights are on the same circuit as the dining room lights, then they will be AFCI protected by default.
 

One-eyed Jack

Senior Member
Yes, that is exactly what he (and I and many others) are saying. Of course if the bathroom lights are on the same circuit as the hall lights or the kitchen lights are on the same circuit as the dining room lights, then they will be AFCI protected by default.
IMO the AFCI requirement is industry driven and serves no useful function for the consumer. The CMP,s would do well to reconsider this device and drop it . Case in point it is totally asinine to imply that kitchen,bathroom,and garage lighting outlets are more or less prone to arc faults than the rest of the lighting outlets.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
Case in point it is totally asinine to imply that kitchen,bathroom,and garage lighting outlets are more or less prone to arc faults than the rest of the lighting outlets.

No argument there, especially when my cables run through bedroom walls and ceilings to get to the kitchen circuits.
 

jwjrw

Senior Member
I still cant figure out why kitchens etc are exempt from arc fault protection.
Makes no sense to me.
 
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