Abandoning old romex

[jwjrw]

Or the home owner goes in attic and grabs it by accident. I read 300.5 but didnt see where it said it has to be in a box. I know its correct but what part dennis?

 

[iwire]

The only reason I can see it being unsafe is if there is a remodel job and someones assumes it's dead because it was buried in the ceiling.

Or the home owner goes in attic and grabs it by accident.

I guess I just have different understanding of insulated.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I guess I just have different understanding of insulated.

So are you saying it is legal to leave a hot wire in the ceiling with no box?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Or the home owner goes in attic and grabs it by accident. I read 300.5 but didnt see where it said it has to be in a box. I know its correct but what part dennis?

300.15 not 300.5

300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings ? Where Required.
A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring.
Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.
Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, termination point, or pull point, unless otherwise permitted in 300.15(A) through (M).

 

[iwire]

So are you saying it is legal to leave a hot wire in the ceiling with no box?

No, I have been saying it is not unsafe.

As far as the NEC I think it is unclear. Most times when we say we terminate a conductor it means we have connected to a termination. Given that definition it would be legal to dead end a conductor without a box. It is done all the time as K&T is abandoned.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Well, I see it differently. Art. 300.15 has the method for knob and tube and one for other methods. They certainly are not the same. It appears to me that there are more restrictions on the other wiring methods.

Quite frankly I don't see it as that unsafe either but I do see it as a violation.

 

[iwire]

Well, I see it differently. Art. 300.15 has the method for knob and tube and one for other methods. They certainly are not the same. It appears to me that there are more restrictions on the other wiring methods.

Quite frankly I don't see it as that unsafe either but I do see it as a violation.

Read the section you posted.

Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, termination point, or pull point, unless otherwise permitted in 300.15(A) through (M)

I am not convinced a dead ended NM is a termination point.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Read the section you posted.

Did you think I didn't read it.:grin:

I am not convinced a dead ended NM is a termination point.

Well if you don't see the end of the wire as the termination then I can't make you see it that way. We will just have to see it differently. :grin:

I just can't imagine the writers of the NEC would say this was allowed.

 

[jes25]

A known hot wire obviously belongs in a box. I am talking about wires that you disconnected and rang out. They are dead and abandoned and not part of the premise wiring any more as far as one can tell without actually seeing it. You may think you have found a wire, but you never know, it could be T tapped in the wall and refed off a switched basement light or something crazy like that. The only way to be a 100% sure is to remove it which is not possible.

I like Iwire's plan. I am going to start using heat shrink to encapsulate the end of a piece of abandoned romex.

 

[iwire]

Well if you don't see the end of the wire as the termination then I can't make you see it that way. We will just have to see it differently. :grin:

I just can't imagine the writers of the NEC would say this was allowed.

I love the ROPs, they have proved my views so many times.




















But not this time, :grin: it looks like they added 'termination point' for just this reason in the 2002 NEC.

So Dennis you are correct and I was wrong.

 

[milehiwire]

Denise's post's make me sneeze and cough to look at.

Cats! horrible little creatures.

 

[Teaspoon]

I was just doing a rewire on a previously added-on (60's or so) laundry room addition. The whole addition was wired off the old porch complete with an open splice where the old porch light was. Obviously done by an DIYer. So I rewired the thing and abandoned the old wiring.

I just hate abandoning wiring in the walls when I can't physically see it along the whole length. I am always afraid it's tied in somewhere else, double feed or something, and the cut off abandoned wires will somehow get hot in the future.

Do you guys think I'm just being a worry wart? I don't know what else to do other than cut 'em off and leave 'em in the wall without tearing the whole thing down to the studs.

When I run into a situation like this i like to disconnect from the panel.
If it is not possiable to disconnect from panel pull the unused end of the wire into a junction box wirenut wires individually& tape put cover on junction box.This should prevent any danger.

 

[electricmanscott]

A known hot wire obviously belongs in a box. I am talking about wires that you disconnected and rang out. They are dead and abandoned and not part of the premise wiring any more as far as one can tell without actually seeing it. You may think you have found a wire, but you never know, it could be T tapped in the wall and refed off a switched basement light or something crazy like that. The only way to be a 100% sure is to remove it which is not possible.

I like Iwire's plan. I am going to start using heat shrink to encapsulate the end of a piece of abandoned romex.

I don't get the fear of a taped up wire end. :-? I have done this countless times.

i have yet to see somebody show how this is a violation.

 

[jwjrw]

I don't get the fear of a taped up wire end. :-? I have done this countless times.

i have yet to see somebody show how this is a violation.

Dennis says 300.15 I think some one else says no. The argument is that it dosent clearly state it has to be in a box but most inspectors here want it in a box or removed. Right or wrong I dont know but it looks more professional than leaving wires taped up.

 

[macmikeman]

Ok then, put a box over the conductors, then mix and fill the box with Chico just to be sure, and then place the whole thing inside a steel fire rated safe just to be more sure, and then caulk up the entry hole with fire caulk just to be more sure, and then de-rate the cable that passed thru the fire caulk, just to more sure, and then.....

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't get the fear of a taped up wire end. :-? I have done this countless times.

you know that doesn't make it code compliant:grin:

[/quote]i have yet to see somebody show how this is a violation.[/quote]
Have you read Bob's post #30 that backs up my reference to 300.15? If so then I have no other info to shed on the subject. To me it is clear but it obviously was not clear to everyone.

 

[LarryFine]

What I do is make sure I have both ends of the segment of cable, make sure I'll never want to use the wires again, and then cut them as short as possible and push any cut ends at a box out of the box.

 

[Kdog76]

I wouldn't call it a JB if there is no splicing going on. My local AHJ will allow me to terminate an unused cable in a plastic box if each conductor is seperated, capped off with a wirenut, and blanked off. It can then be buried because it is NOT a junction box.
If I know where the other end is, and know it can't be energized short of tearing the wall open, then I will still tape or wirenut the exposed end and shove it in the wall so it can't be seen. I call it my 'disappearing act'. :grin:

 

[kbsparky]

WE usually leave the old leads in the back of an outlet box, capped off.

There has been more than one occasion where we had to re-use the "abandoned" wires, when we later discovered a hidden outlet behind some large piece of furniture stopped working ....

 

[Mr.Sparkle]

I do not tape or connect the wires together, I isolate them from each other with wirenuts and then tape, and then write on the sheath- abandoned cable, do not energize at both ends...

I do exactly the same.