6/4....6/3 w/g wire?

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gotmud

Senior Member
Location
some place cold
Hey have any of you seen or have a 6/3 romex wire with an insulated ground? (Black, Red, White, Green) I ask because this would be perfect for wiring hot tubs because it has an insulated ground in the sheeth unlike normal 6/3 w/g that has a bare uninsulated ground....

I've called all my wholesale houses here and they say it don't exist, BUT I was at a job the other day and saw some???? It was marked HI TECH CABLE CORP NMB S-HT-X on the jacket?????
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Hot Tubs don't require an insulated ground if it is wired thru the building on residence 680.42(C). I would be more concerned with the size of the EGC in NM cable since many manufacturers are requiring a full size egc.
 
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gotmud

Senior Member
Location
some place cold
Dennis Alwon said:
Hot Tubs don't require an insulated ground if it is wired thru the building on residence 680.42(C). I would be more concerned with the size of the EGC in NM cable since many manufacturers are requiring a full size egc.
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Yes but many of the hot tubs have 2-3 two pole breakers in the disconnect to run the tub. (2p 20 for the pumps, 2p 30 for heater) SO it is now considered a subpanel for a pool, hense the need for an insulated ground from the main panel to the hot tub disconnect/sub panel.:mad: At least that is what our inspectors are enforcing....If I remember right the packaged hot tubs I've been wiring require #6's to it with a 10 ground...So this wire would be great!!! The only other option we have had is to pipe around the house or pipe through the house which sucks....So when I saw this magical wire at a job that I was told didn't exist It was like seeing Santa..(OH IT DOES EXIST!!) said like the m&m guys....:grin:
 
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gotmud

Senior Member
Location
some place cold
Ya that would be nice BUT not allowed here...So has anyone seen this wire??? Like I said I've seen it but no one seems to know anything about it...Maybe it is a figment of my imagination???:-? Oh no it is not cause I took a picture of it..:D
 
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curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
If you are considering this a feeder I don't know how having a cable assembly with insulated ground provides any benefits. The feeder is required to be installed in a raceway so individual conductors should be used.
 
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gotmud

Senior Member
Location
some place cold
curt swartz said:
If you are considering this a feeder I don't know how having a cable assembly with insulated ground provides any benefits. The feeder is required to be installed in a raceway so individual conductors should be used.
Click to expand...

It would be a feeder and it is not required to be in pipe as long as you have a cable assembly like romex..Which goes back to my original question....Has anybody seen or do you have this wire???? I'd post my picture of it but it's on my camera phone and it's a really dark picture so it would be worthless to post....I've seen it so I know it exists so at one time or another it must of been made???? M/C is an option but that would be a bitch to fish across a finished ceiling compared to a romex, plus I bet 6/4 M/C is pretty expensive....

I'm not really trying to find alternatives I'm just trying to find this wire...Thanks;):D
 
T

ty

Senior Member
Location
3rd Rock from the Sun
I have seen the wire you question, but not new. It was existing in some job somewhere.

You can special order almost any configuration you want, if you want to pay for it.

You might spend more time and money trying to get this wire, than if you just used pvc. By the time you get it, the job could have been done and billed out.
 
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gotmud

Senior Member
Location
some place cold
ty said:
I have seen the wire you question, but not new. It was existing in some job somewhere.

You can special order almost any configuration you want, if you want to pay for it.

You might spend more time and money trying to get this wire, than if you just used pvc. By the time you get it, the job could have been done and billed out.
Click to expand...

I hear ya...I just wanted to put some of this on the shelf to use down the road on the future tubs we get...If it's special order wire then I don't need it I was just was wondering if it was a common wire and my wholesalers had their heads up there butts..:D
 
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curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
gotmud said:
It would be a feeder and it is not required to be in pipe as long as you have a cable assembly like romex..Which goes back to my original question....Has anybody seen or do you have this wire???? I'd post my picture of it but it's on my camera phone and it's a really dark picture so it would be worthless to post....I've seen it so I know it exists so at one time or another it must of been made???? M/C is an option but that would be a bitch to fish across a finished ceiling compared to a romex, plus I bet 6/4 M/C is pretty expensive....

I'm not really trying to find alternatives I'm just trying to find this wire...Thanks;):D
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You might want to review the articles below.

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

680.25 Feeders.
These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of panelboards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment or the source of a separately derived system.
(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, or reinforced thermosetting resin conduit. Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be permitted where installed within a building. Aluminum conduits shall not be permitted in the pool area where subject to corrosion.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
gotmud said:
H... I was at a job the other day and saw some????
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1. Go back to that job and ask whoever you have to ask to find out where it came from.

2. Come back here and tell us, and become an instant celebrity (added: ) . . . for a day or two.
 
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gotmud

Senior Member
Location
some place cold
curt swartz said:
You might want to review the articles below.

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

680.25 Feeders.
These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of panelboards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment or the source of a separately derived system.
(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, or reinforced thermosetting resin conduit. Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be permitted where installed within a building. Aluminum conduits shall not be permitted in the pool area where subject to corrosion.
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Good call on the code...It seems I couldn't use this imaginary:-? romex anyhows....I sure would like to be a celebrity, even for 2 hours. I wonder if celebrity status pays well.:D..The home owner would have no idea but I guess I could call the city and see who wired that house and ask them were they got it....Hey now that I'm looking at (A) above is that telling me I can't run PVC on an (outside) run to the sub????
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
from 2008 NEC

IV. Spas and Hot Tubs
680.40 General.
Electrical installations at spas and hot tubs shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part IV of this article.
680.41 Emergency Switch for Spas and Hot Tubs.
A clearly labeled emergency shutoff or control switch for the purpose of stopping the motor(s) that provide power to the recirculation system and jet system shall be installed at a point readily accessible to the users and not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) away, adjacent to, and within sight of the spa or hot tub. This requirement shall not apply to single-family dwellings.
680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.
(A) Flexible Connections. Listed packaged spa or hot tub equipment assemblies or self-contained spas or hot tubs utilizing a factory-installed or assembled control panel or panelboard shall be permitted to use flexible connections as covered in 680.42(A)(1) and (A)(2).
(1) Flexible Conduit. Liquidtight flexible metal conduit or liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted in lengths of not more than 1.8 m (6 ft).
(2) Cord-and-Plug Connections. Cord-and-plug connections with a cord not longer than 4.6 m (15 ft) shall be permitted where protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted. The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an underwater luminaire shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.

I would think the NM cable is allowed according to this and ground can be uninsulated, if full size ground is required by equipment instructions make it a feeder, and then run full size ground from final OCPD to equipment.
 
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gotmud

Senior Member
Location
some place cold
kwired said:
from 2008 NEC

IV. Spas and Hot Tubs
680.40 General.
Electrical installations at spas and hot tubs shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part IV of this article.
680.41 Emergency Switch for Spas and Hot Tubs.
A clearly labeled emergency shutoff or control switch for the purpose of stopping the motor(s) that provide power to the recirculation system and jet system shall be installed at a point readily accessible to the users and not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) away, adjacent to, and within sight of the spa or hot tub. This requirement shall not apply to single-family dwellings.
680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.
(A) Flexible Connections. Listed packaged spa or hot tub equipment assemblies or self-contained spas or hot tubs utilizing a factory-installed or assembled control panel or panelboard shall be permitted to use flexible connections as covered in 680.42(A)(1) and (A)(2).
(1) Flexible Conduit. Liquidtight flexible metal conduit or liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted in lengths of not more than 1.8 m (6 ft).
(2) Cord-and-Plug Connections. Cord-and-plug connections with a cord not longer than 4.6 m (15 ft) shall be permitted where protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted. The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an underwater luminaire shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.

I would think the NM cable is allowed according to this and ground can be uninsulated, if full size ground is required by equipment instructions make it a feeder, and then run full size ground from final OCPD to equipment.
Click to expand...

Go back to my post #4...Because of the more than one breaker it is now a panel not a disconnect so it now falls under a feeder to a pool panel...:mad: and you cannot use 680.41 (c)
 
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