selective coordination

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mshields

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
A couple of questions about 0.1 second selective coordination.

Most basic of these; what does the 0.1 seconds refer to. Is this the minimal amount of separation between device curves.

Cutler Hammer is distributing a pamphlet in anticipation of the 2012 NFPA 99 requiring 0.1 second selective coordination. What is required now?

Is 0.1 considered the standard buffer between curves for a truly coordinated system and therefore when we say a system needs to have 0.1 second coordination, are we really just saying that it needs to be coordinated.

In any event, where did the 0.1 value come from?

Thanks,

Mike
 

ron

Senior Member
Mike,
The requirement for selective coordination now, is typically required from 0 seconds through infinity. Some engineers think that it is the only way to provide good reliable protection and reduction of massive outages in a facility. In the typical CB curve below, you'll see that >0.1 seconds is essentially overload portion of protection, ignoring the instantaneous or short circuit protection.
http://www.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/Time Current Curves|GES-6103F|generic

IMHO, selectivity throughout the entire time range is not always the best design. Sometimes it means that you must use fuses (the selectivity requirement in Article 700 and 701 was pushed into adoption by Bussmann ;) )
In most buildings that I do work in, they do not have an adequate spare fuse of each type in the building, and the replacement of a fuse after investigation of a trip, is often delayed or an improper replacement is made. This does not lead to the good reliable protection and reduction of massive outages that Bussman thinks that it would. It however leads to more fuse purchases.
Compromising to a >0.1 second selectivity gives the designer more choice to make a good engineered solution, rather than force the hand into a fuse purchase. JMO
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
It is interesting that NFPA 99 is going to accept the .1 second selective coordination when proposals to make the change in the NEC for the 2011 code were rejected.
 

steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
A couple of questions about 0.1 second selective coordination.

Most basic of these; what does the 0.1 seconds refer to. Is this the minimal amount of separation between device curves.

Cutler Hammer is distributing a pamphlet in anticipation of the 2012 NFPA 99 requiring 0.1 second selective coordination. What is required now?

Is 0.1 considered the standard buffer between curves for a truly coordinated system and therefore when we say a system needs to have 0.1 second coordination, are we really just saying that it needs to be coordinated.

In any event, where did the 0.1 value come from?

Thanks,

Mike

Do you have a link to the pamphlet? That would be interesting to see.

Steve
 

ron

Senior Member
Steve,
From http://www.nfpa.org/assets/Files/PDF/ROP/99-A2009-ROP.pdf

99-93 Log #CP309 HEA-ELS​
Final Action: Accept
(4.4.2.1.2, 4.5.2.2.2, 4.6.2.2.2 )

_______________________________________________________________​
Submitter:​
Technical Committee on Electrical Systems,

Recommendation:​
Add three new sections (4.4.2.1.2, 4.5.2.2.2 and 4.6.2.2.2)
to read:
4.4.2.1.2 Selective Coordination. Overcurrent protective devices serving the
essential electrical system shall be selectively coordinated down to 0.1 seconds.
4.5.2.2.2 Selective Coordination. Overcurrent protective devices serving the
essential electrical system shall be selectively coordinated down to 0.1 seconds.
4.6.2.2.2 Selective Coordination. Overcurrent protective devices serving the
essential electrical system shall be selectively coordinated down to 0.1 seconds.
Add three new annex sections for each of these sections (A.4.4.2.1.2,
A.4.5.2.2.2, and A.4.6.2.2.2) to read:
It is important that the various overcurrent devices be coordinated, as far as
practicable, to isolate faulted circuits and to protect against cascading operation
on short circuit faults. In many systems, however, full coordination could
compromise safety and system reliability. Primary consideration also should be
given to prevent overloading of equipment by limiting the possibilities of large
current inrushes due to instantaneous reestablishment of connections to heavy
loads.

Substantiation:​
Selective coordination is only one of several competing
factors that must be considered in the selection of appropriate overcurrent
protective devices (OCPDs) in health care facilities, Other factors that must be
considered in the selection of overcurrent protective devices include: arc flash
risk hazard, equipment damage, and reduced risk of extended outages; all of
which have direct effects on both staff and patient safety. Mandating selective
coordination as the sole determining factor in OCPD selection will result in
diminished reliability of the essential electrical system.
The method of application of selective coordination directly affects the
performance of the essential electrical system in a health care facility.
Establishment and management of this type of performance criterion
traditionally belongs under the purview of this committee.

Committee Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 23
Ballot Results:​
Affirmative: 21 Negative: 1 Abstain: 1

Explanation of Negative:​
LIPSTER, S.: It is ironic that all of the factors included in the committee?s
substantiation statement​
(arc flash risk, equipment damage and reduced risk of
extended outage)
are negatively impacted by this proposal. One tenth of second
allows six full cycles of excessive overcurrent to provide energy at the fault
location, which is not acceptable. The substantiation provides no
documentation as to the necessity of this change.

Explanation of Abstention:​
KLEIN, B.: 1. I am not qualified to comment on the subject of selective
coordination.
2. I agree that T/C on Electrical System can and needs to require selective
coordination to avoid some fault tripping out a major portion of a facility. I
only question whether it is within the scope of this T/C to select the timing (0.1
seconds). Is this an NEC responsibility?​
Comment on Affirmative:​
BEY, L.: The concept of selective coordination that requires complete
separation of the overcurrent device time-overcurrent curves for all possible
values of fault current is too restrictive without some qualification. Using time
(above 0.1s) as the qualifier ignores the instantaneous response of molded case
circuit breakers. Using multiples of rated current as the qualifier achieves a
reasonable level of selectivity under fault conditions for reliability reasons. A
possible alternative wording would be as follows - Selective Coordination.
Overcurrent devices serving the essential electrical system shall be selectively
coordinated down to 0.1 seconds for available rms fault current up to twenty
times (20x) rated current of the device(s). Selective coordination of overcurrent
devices above twenty times (20x) rated current shall not be required. Using
multiples of rated current as the qualifier instead of time would allow both
molded case circuit breakers and fuses to be used. Twenty times rated current is
suggested as high enough to avoid cascading overcurrent device operation for
all but seriously faulted circuits or equipment. Using multiples of rated current
simplifies the use of selective coordination tables published by overcurrent​
device manufacturers. A coordination study would still be required.
 

steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
Thanks Ron.

And Amen. I think as much coordination as possible is good. But sometimes it really takes a lot to get to .01 sec, especially when modifying or adding to existing facilities.

The negative comment seems to be equating coordination with fast trip settings. Just the opposite happens, more coordination often means increasing or eliminating the instantenous trip function.

Steve
 
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