Teaching troubleshooting

[jxofaltrds]

Here is a question for all of you and your students.

Given: Simple 3 way switched circuit. The feed is at one end and the switch leg (light) is at the other end.

Both 3 ways are working and wired properly.

The homeowner replaces the 3 way at the end that feeds the light.

They forgot to mark the travellers and the 'feed' to the light.

Now it only works part of the time.

Could you over the phone and only allowing them to use a wirenut (switch not connected), help them connect the wires correctly?

 

[480sparky]

..............Could you over the phone and only allowing them to use a wirenut (switch not connected), help them connect the wires correctly?

I could, but I wouldn't. I would set up a service call and charge them accordingly.






And I think they would need some basic tools as well. And they wouldn't need the wirenut.

 

[chris kennedy]

I could, but I wouldn't. I would set up a service call and charge them accordingly

Yeah, not quite like telling the HO to push 'reset' on the GFCI.

 

[stars13bars2]

It would be totally based on what the person did for a living, and how much they were willing save me over the phone in return.

 

[480sparky]

The fix is exceedingly simple.

Just wire both switches the same.

But that may well be beyond the capability of some callers. That's why I'd rather go out and do the work. Besides, I don't make any money solving problems on the phone..... it makes it rather difficult to bill it out.

 

[mivey]

Let's see (cutting power off between connections):

1) Connect any two wires.
2) Flip the other 3-way switch if the light is off.
3A) Light comes on or is already on = label the unconnected wire as a traveler.
3B) Light stays off = label the unconnected wire as the feed. The two under the wire nut are the travelers.

If 3A, continue, if 3B, you are done.
4) Connect any one of the other wires to the identified traveler.
5) Flip the other 3-way
6A) If the light comes on, the wire connected to the traveler is the feed and the lone wire is the other traveler.
6B) If the light stays off, the wire connected to the traveler is the other traveler and the lone wire is the feed.

 

[LarryFine]

Could you over the phone and only allowing them to use a wirenut (switch not connected), help them connect the wires correctly?

How about no wirenut at all?

Look in the box. Two of the switch wires will enter one cable, and one will enter another cable. Put the latter one on the dark terminal.

 

[ty]

Although I agree with Mivey's answer, it is just too time consuming. Just look inside the bax at the wires. The red and black in one cable are the travellers. done.

 

[mivey]

How about no wirenut at all?

Look in the box. Two of the switch wires will enter one cable, and one will enter another cable. Put the latter one on the dark terminal.

Two scenarios:
1) This is all in one conduit entering the switch box. Don't you know romex burns houses down?
2) Box is full of stuuf and they would have to remove the other switches to tell where the wires goes.

Bonus scenario: They keep telling you over the phone that all three screws are the same color.

 

[mivey]

Just look inside the bax at the wires. The red and black in one cable are the travellers. done.

Follow other EC's much?

 

[ty]

Follow other EC's much?

nope :roll:
coincidense.

Before I even got that far into helping over the phone, I would have asked what type wiring was in the box. It would also be faster to take bothe switches apart than to keep running back to panel box.

But, like I said before, I agree with your answer to the OP question.

 

[mivey]

nope :roll:
coincidense.

Before I even got that far into helping over the phone, I would have asked what type wiring was in the box. It would also be faster to take bothe switches apart than to keep running back to panel box.

But, like I said before, I agree with your answer to the OP question.

Just messing with you.:grin: I just never trust the wiring to be done like it is supposed to be. I just have seen too much junky wiring I guess.

At any rate, I doubt I would do this over the phone. You usually can't trust what you are being told anyway.

 

[LarryFine]

Okay, then, a wirenut:

Nut two wires together, try the other switch.

Nut one with the third, try the switch again.

Nut together the last pair, try the switch.

The light will light in two of the connections.

The one wire that must be used is the common.

 

[mivey]

How about:
Wire nut any two together until both commons on the good switch shock you (lick fingers to avoid phantom voltages). Then the wires under the wirenut are the travelers.

 

[480sparky]

I'll stick with: Wire it the way the other 3-way is.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Before you tell the home owner anything you have to ask about how old the house is and who did the original install. Around here an older house, as well as some newer houses wired by non-electricians, are likely to have hot travelers.

 

[kwired]

non electricians and three ways never seem to work well together.

for some interesting results what if they had one of them "chicago" or what ever city name others use three way circuits.

I have seen homeowners try to replace three way switch with single pole and not know what to do with the third wire - oh I can put it under that green screw.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Thanks for the answers. Just trying to come up with a troubleshooting example.

I did not meat that we where really helping a homeowner.

Wanted to see if a student could close there eyes and solve this problem.

I have always tried to look at a problem before tearing into it.

I could have worded the qustion better.

 

[LarryFine]

I have seen homeowners try to replace three way switch with single pole and not know what to do with the third wire - oh I can put it under that green screw.

Thought process suggested by a laundry receptacle I found tapped into a 3-wire from a switch:

"Let's see: black to black, check; white to white, check; red to . . . bare copper is red, right?" :roll:

 

[ActionDave]

I have seen homeowners try to replace three way switch with single pole and not know what to do with the third wire - oh I can put it under that green screw.

Yikes! I've seen that too. Here's another one- "This light blows the breaker but only every once in a while. What would cause that?"
HO replaced a 3-way switch and put the ECG on one of the traveler screws.