Harmonic affects

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Besoeker

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UK
I believe what Don is saying and what I have observed and what Brian John has found from years of testing is that while harmonic issues are often present they often do no damage and cause no real harm other than maybe some inefficiencies.
Well, I listed three examples. For two of them there was a problem, and an expensive one at that. The third I don't know.
But I have come across others where there were problems. One was in a plant where every single fluorescent light had failed. Then there was the 400kW drive that was giving a local farmer a headache and etc......

Except where there is a fairly immediate and dramatic effect, I think that the deleterious effects of harmonics are likely to go under recorded.
 

don_resqcapt19

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retired electrician
If look at most the information out there you would expect to see neutrals that failed as a result of the additive harmonic currents in most every office or school occupancy...that just is not happening in the real world.
 

StephenSDH

Senior Member
Location
Allentown, PA
I had a customer lose several capacitors, before he learned it was harmonics from drives.

I had a drive losing a run signal over night, because of fork lift chargers. That took over a month to troubleshoot.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
If look at most the information out there you would expect to see neutrals that failed as a result of the additive harmonic currents in most every office or school occupancy...that just is not happening in the real world.
The places I mentioned are in the real world. And had real world problems.
:)
 

iwire

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The places I mentioned are in the real world. And had real world problems.
:)

All three examples seem like they may have had poor engineering practices that go beyond what we are discussing here. :)

And this one

On another installation in a large luxury hotel there was mixture of three-phase and single phase with both linear and non linear loads. The overloaded neutral bar problem was fixed by adding filters. On every one of the 50 floors.

puzzles the heck out of me, why would there be a harmonic issue in this occupancy???
 
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Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
And this one



puzzles the heck out of me, why would there be a harmonic issue in this occupancy???
That, in a way, it exemplifies what I mean.
One might argue that all three had poor engineering practices because things were missed or not considered. But that sometimes happens in the real world.
The last project, the one that puzzles you, was engineered by one of the world's leading consultancy companies with 16,000 employees, a turnover of about $2.4 billion, and one of the world's largest employers of professionally qualified staff. Intellectual horsepower in abundance one would think.

Yet they, like you, didn't envisage a problem with harmonics in this case. People very often don't until it comes and bites them in the bum. Until it becomes a problem requiring an immediate fix. As it did in this case.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
I have looked at 100's of facilities for harmonics and what I have seen/experienced.

Most of my customers are commercial office buildings management companies, where by per the NEC there is an over design of the electrical distribution, more capacity than will ever be utilized TYPICALLY. Normal site actual load is about 30% capacity.

From the early days: While the site distribution equipment was over designed for site loads (the facilities I saw) the utility transformers were often border line, with the advent of VFD's there were quite a few utility company transformer that were replaced due to failures. Many of these transformers were old to start with. But in many cases the new transformers failed and it was not until the utility engineers, the customer or their contractor read an article or did research was the culprit narrowed down to harmonics. Another issue we saw was with the early electronic relays. We had data centers that demanded these 1st generation electronic relays as the hot new ticket. Some of the relays had issues with the high harmonic content of the voltage and current waveforms and were "nuisance" tripping".

Another type of facility I was involved with, were call large centers (something rare in America today) . These typically were located in a warehouse office park or in a commercial office building. Neither designed for the large number of side by side row after PC's. This was one place where over sized neutrals may have been helpful. Though with the high number of switch mode power supplies and operating transformers at 90-100%, even neutrals would not have prevented the transformer failures we saw. I also so harmonics issues become a concern at casinos, as the one armed bandits were changed out from mechanical to electronics. Once again the transformers paid for this over site.
THe call centers, casinos and a few TV/radio stations were one of the few places I saw neutral currents approaching 130% of load currents.

In the typical office building common in Washington DC, I just have not seen an issue. I have checked lighting panels and never saw a concern for not using MWBC's or for over sizing neutrals.

In the data centers around Washington DC, I have seen a few issues BUT once again these were typically in converted office buildings that now had a glut of computers that they system was never designed for. IN the data centers with sensible design we seldom see issues.

The last place we have seen MAJOR issues especially in the early days of large and small data centers, was with generators. Many of the generators had mechanical governors and were sized for the load with no consideration for any possible harmonic distortion. The generators would fall on their butt when needed for emergency situations. This was also the era of little to no site testing and even if there was site testing the loads were resistive load banks.

With proper design, taking into consideration the needs of the tenant and their loads, regular maintenance that monitors site load and a customer that is diligent tracking future loads harmonics should not be an issue.
 
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iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
Yet they, like you, didn't envisage a problem with harmonics in this case. People very often don't until it comes and bites them in the bum. Until it becomes a problem requiring an immediate fix. As it did in this case.

But can you explain why they had this issue?




I think Brian's post matches what I see as well. If a typical building in the US is built using the NEC design perimeters the distribution system is so robust that it would be virtually imposable to overload a 'standard' size neutral conductors.
 

roger

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Fl
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Here is an old thread that is somewhat relevant to this one.

Roger
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
But can you explain why they had this issue?
I thought I had in post #14.
Non-linear loads.
To expand a little, the greater part of the problem was the single-phase non-linear content. All the electronic devices such as computers, televisions, film projectors, etc. plus controlled (dimmable) lighting. No single load in itself was of particular concern. It was just the aggregate number of them that resulted in problems.

And it is just that kind of thing that I have also seen on shared supplies in residential areas. For more or less the same reasons.

In my experience, it is complaints driven and, unless there is an immediate and evident problem, it just goes under the radar for the most part. A few rather premature failures of say conventional fluorescent ballasts in different domestic residences on the same supply isn't altogether likely to flag up a supply quality concern.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Illinois
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retired electrician
I made no such claim.
Nor would I.
But my comment that you commented on said that if you read all of the hype out there about harmonic problems you would expect that the neutrals in those types of occupancies would all be failing unless they were over sized or you used some form or harmonic mitigation.
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
And it is just that kind of thing that I have also seen on shared supplies in residential areas. For more or less the same reasons.

Harmonic issues in residencies, I find that very hard to believe.

Maybe there is a big difference between how we wire here as opposed to there?


I am sticking with (at least for modern buildings designed under the NEC) much about nothing perpetrated by those with products to sell.
 

PowerQualityDoctor

Senior Member
Location
Israel
Harmonic issues in residencies, I find that very hard to believe.
In residences, the harmonics goes back to the utility, so it is usually not an issue (with one exception of "Smart Houses" installation).

Maybe there is a big difference between how we wire here as opposed to there?
If you look at the post, you can see some people from "here" that report about harmonics issues. And just for the record, power quality standards are more developed in Europe.

I am sticking with (at least for modern buildings designed under the NEC) much about nothing perpetrated by those with products to sell.
Part of my job is to educate consultant engineers about new issues. The problem with electricity is that people think nothing changed since Edison's light bulb. Well, it is. 90% of the consultant engineers don't know much about harmonics. I can't expect more from simple electrician.
 
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