Hendrix
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
On a counter top in a den, there is a wet bar. Would a gfci protected circuit (one duplex) within 6' of the sink have to be afci protected also ??
gfci-afci
- Thread starter Hendrix
- Start date
- Status
Volta
Senior Member
- Location
- Columbus, Ohio
Yes. A den is a "similar room or area" to a . . . . . . . .den. :grin:
210.12
210.12
Hendrix
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
The key word here is "circuit", meaning one.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
OK. You wrote "GFCI protected circuit" so, you are saying that you have a GFCI circuit breaker installed.
That really doesn't change the answer.
210.8 only asks that the receptacle be GFCI protected which can be done with a GFCI receptacle. One can do it with the breaker, but the wiring between the receptacle and the breaker is not required to be protected . . . it can be, but it is not required that it be protected.
210.12, however does require the circuit to be protected if it has outlets in the areas that are listed. That means the AFCI protection has to be back at the beginning of the branch circuit. Note Exception No. 1. This describes an AFCI device that mounts in a standard wall case, however, to my knowledge, that AFCI device is not for sale yet.
So, for your original question:
Yes.
Hendrix
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
So, You're saying that the gfci breaker be removed, replaced by an afci breaker and a gfci receptacle be installed.:-?
OK. You wrote "GFCI protected circuit" so, you are saying that you have a GFCI circuit breaker installed.
That really doesn't change the answer.
210.8 only asks that the receptacle be GFCI protected which can be done with a GFCI receptacle. One can do it with the breaker, but the wiring between the receptacle and the breaker is not required to be protected . . . it can be, but it is not required that it be protected.
210.12, however does require the circuit to be protected if it has outlets in the areas that are listed. That means the AFCI protection has to be back at the beginning of the branch circuit. Note Exception No. 1. This describes an AFCI device that mounts in a standard wall case, however, to my knowledge, that AFCI device is not for sale yet.
So, for your original question: Yes.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
As for the breakers, yup. No way to avoid it.
If the receptacle on your circuit is installed for a certain aesthetic, and wouldn't "be right" with a GFCI receptacle, well . . . there are workarounds like mounting the GFCI remotely (say in a J-box back at the panel) . . . but that may introduce user confusion when the GFCI trips.
Anyway, bottom line, by the 2008 NEC, the circuit and outlets must have AFCI protection and the receptacle must have GFCI protection. However you arrange the physical things that you assemble into the working branch circuit and outlet, that is the Code minimum requirement.
Hendrix
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Maybe a bunson burner and another counter circuit can be installed and call it a kitchen :grin:
are you installing a new receptical? or just asking if one within 6 feet of the sink needs to be GFCi,d??
Hendrix
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
New receptacle, seperate 20a circuit.
yup need AFCI
mtfallsmikey
Senior Member
Don't want to hijack this,but....on another site, some of us were discussing a statement from Nationwide Insurance about the increase this winter of fires due to use of "alternative" heating methods, including electric space heaters with extension cords. Have there been any studies done since the introduction of AFCI's as to any decrease in electrical fires? Also, have the operational problems with a lot of AFCI's been resolved...enquiring minds want to know.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Do you have a link to Nationwide's opinion?
what problems?
mtfallsmikey
Senior Member
Siemens, to name one.
most of that is old news and most of it has been corrected by the mfg. there are always problems with new product, and a lot of the problems with afci's was in fact a result of the device doing its job. Sq D also had a problem and a recall, The simeons problem with the branch and feeder types was a issue of stacking the breakers and their internal power supply creating heat, there was conversation regarding the whole house on afci and a need to ventilate a load center. if these problems were currently a large issue I find it hard to believe there are not several post here a day pointing out the failures.
Not saying there are no nuisance trips, I get a few a a year in my own home, But I ususally can define it as a overload or bad utilization eq.
I do not see a large problem with AFCI across the market.
thans just me
- Status