30A/2P stacked washer/dryer...is 20A laundry circuit still required?

[petersonra]

If I'm reading 210.11 right, it doesn't specify voltage for any branch circuit. However, 210.52 does.
Am I off base here?

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section
provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle
outlets.

I was going to point that out, but you beat me to it.

 

[One-eyed Jack]

Let's look at it this way:

210.52(F) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry.

This does not state voltage or amperage.

210.11(C)(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.

Hmm. No voltage requirements here, either. So I install a 30a circuit. It is 'at least' a 20a circuit.

I agree. It works for me.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

2-146 Log #2071 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.11(C)(2))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Mark T. Rochon, Peabody, MA
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this
section, at least on additional 20 or 30 ampere branch circuit shall be provided
to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F).
Substantiation: Most commonly used compact washer and dryer units require
a 30 ampere branch circuit and a receptacle outlet.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: 210.52 specifies that the required receptacle outlets are 125-
volt for all of the receptacle outlets in 210.52. If a 30A circuit is required, it
must be in addition to the required 20A circuit.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12
_______________________________________________________________

 

[iwire]

Along with what Don has posted this is from the 2008 ROP

2-97 Log #3259 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.11(C)(2)(a))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Ryan Schank, North Branch, MI

Recommendation: Add text to read as follows:
(a) Additional receptacles in the laundry room provided they are 20 amp rated
can be served from adjacent circuits the specific laundry circuit is installed.

Substantiation: The reason for this is that it does not tell you if you can bring
in more circuits into the laundry room.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement: The intent of this section is to require at least one 20-
ampere branch-circuit that is dedicated to the laundry area to ensure that the
branch circuit is sufficiently sized to supply electrical equipment associated with
doing laundry, such as an iron. Receptacles installed in a laundry area
intended to serve laundry equipment must comply with 210.11(C)(2) as
presently written. The requirements in section 210.11 do not preclude the
addition of other branch circuits in the laundry area.

Number Eligible to Vote: 12

Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12

The CMP expects the 20 amp 'Laundry circuit' to supply more than the washer.

 

[malachi constant]

Bob and Don, thank you very much for this information. I will stop noting the laundry circuit as something which the AHJ may be persuaded to drop.

Follow-up question: does this mean the required 20A/1P laundry circuit should NOT be allowed to feed the washing machine? This runs contrary to what I understand to be standard industry practice, and does not seem to be clearly addressed by the code. It would appear based on the proposals you posted that the intent is for the laundry circuit to be used for general purpose laundry loads, and not for washer/dryer equipment.

That question is for installation, and I have the same question as it relates to load calcs.

I assume the answer to both is the laundry circuit CAN be used to feed the washing machine, and that the 1500VA can be assumed to include the washing machine load.

 

[LarryFine]

I have seen units come both ways. One cord and two cords. I would install both receptacles no matter what.

Absolutely, and is enforced here that way.

I can agree with the "THOU SHALT CODE" stance. But I disagree with the logic that since a future unit could come with two cords we should plan for it that way now.

Not everyone has laundry equipment, but we must plan for the future.

Added: What if someone opts to use only a washer and hang-dry the laundry? Where do they plug in the washer?

 

[LarryFine]

So I install a 30a circuit. It is 'at least' a 20a circuit.

It says "at least one," not "at least 20a."

 

[LarryFine]

I assume the answer to both is the laundry circuit CAN be used to feed the washing machine, and that the 1500VA can be assumed to include the washing machine load.

I agree.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I have 'at least one 20amp circuit'. I have one 30a circuit. Last time I went to school, 30 is at least 20 since 30 is larger (or greater) than 20.

Kitchens require at least 2 SABCs. One 40a 240v range receptacle won't cut it. If you have one 30a 240v receptacle then you do not have any 20a circuits.

I already have 10-3 w/g ground installed. I'm covered. In this case, the Code-minimum 20a would suffice. But the OP is asking about 30a units.

You have a 10/3 installed because you have a unit that requires it. You still don't have the required 1 (one) 20a laundry circuit. The 1 (one) is a qualifier for the number of circuits @ 20a required, not the minimum amperage of that circuit.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

It says "at least one," not "at least 20a."

Bingo.

Now I would like to know what is the big deal about providing 30a 240v AND a 20a 120v receptacle? Is this considered overkill to some people?

 

[G0049]

Let's look at it this way:

210.52(F) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry.

This does not state voltage or amperage.

210.11(C)(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.

Hmm. No voltage requirements here, either. So I install a 30a circuit. It is 'at least' a 20a circuit.

The code talks about a recep for the laundry or landry area, not the washing machine. It does not define "laundry". So, if both of the OP's receps are behind the stacked w/d unit, the 20 amp recep would not be available for an iron and, according to the ROP posted by iwire, the CMP clearly intended it should be. If I set my ironing board up in the hallway or bath or bedroom or whatever is just outside the machine niche, that's where my "laundry" recep should be. So, why can't the OP not install the 120 volt, 20 amp recep in the tiny machine niche, but out where it could actually be used? As long as there is room to set up an ironing board, and the prints identify the "laundry" recep, it should not have to be where the w/d are.

 

[LarryFine]

So, if both of the OP's receps are behind the stacked w/d unit, the 20 amp recep would not be available for an iron and, according to the ROP posted by iwire, the CMP clearly intended it should be.

In such a case, a second, accessible receptacle should be included in the design and pricing of the place.

 

[480sparky]

Bingo.

Now I would like to know what is the big deal about providing 30a 240v AND a 20a 120v receptacle? Is this considered overkill to some people?

I'm not considering it 'overkill'. I'm just posting my interpretation of the NEC as saying the 120v outlet is not required if you have a 240v outlet.

 

[malachi constant]

Now I would like to know what is the big deal about providing 30a 240v AND a 20a 120v receptacle? Is this considered overkill to some people?

The receptacle isn't as big a deal as is the load calc.

With a side-by-side installation your calcs look like this:
1500W - laundry circuit
4000W - nameplate of electric dryer
------
5500W total

With a stacked single-point installation your calcs look like this:
1500W - laundry circuit
5500W - nameplate of washer/dryer
------
7000W total

I made up the nameplates out of thin air, but you get the idea. The same thing is essentially being installed: a washer and a dryer. If the Owner bought a stackable washer/dryer with two plugs then the load would go down significantly.

And when using 220.84 to do service calcs for multifamily dwellings that IS a significant difference. 1500W/unit * 200 units * 0.23 Table 220.84 demand factor = 69000 -> 192A at 208V/3P. If that reduces the meter stack or service disconnect panel by one size, and your utility transformer is any significant distance away, you just saved the client tens of thousands of dollars. In this economy a couple of those may mean the difference between a project getting built or not getting built.

After the discussions in this thread I am of the agreement that the 20A laundry circuit is always required to be installed, but that you can assume it includes the washing machine load in the side-by-side scenario above.

 

[malachi constant]

In such a case, a second, accessible receptacle should be included in the design and pricing of the place.

Larry, while I agree this may be the intent of the code, I don't think the code actually requires it nor do I think it is what is commonly practiced in actual installations. In practice it would further muddy how/when/if the 1500W laundry machine load should be assumed to include the washing machine.

 

[iwire]

Kitchens require at least 2 SABCs. One 40a 240v range receptacle won't cut it.

Nicely put.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

The receptacle isn't as big a deal as is the load calc.

With a side-by-side installation your calcs look like this:
1500W - laundry circuit
4000W - nameplate of electric dryer
------
5500W total

With a stacked single-point installation your calcs look like this:
1500W - laundry circuit
5500W - nameplate of washer/dryer
------
7000W total

I made up the nameplates out of thin air, but you get the idea. The same thing is essentially being installed: a washer and a dryer. If the Owner bought a stackable washer/dryer with two plugs then the load would go down significantly.

And when using 220.84 to do service calcs for multifamily dwellings that IS a significant difference. 1500W/unit * 200 units * 0.23 Table 220.84 demand factor = 69000 -> 192A at 208V/3P. If that reduces the meter stack or service disconnect panel by one size, and your utility transformer is any significant distance away, you just saved the client tens of thousands of dollars. In this economy a couple of those may mean the difference between a project getting built or not getting built.

After the discussions in this thread I am of the agreement that the 20A laundry circuit is always required to be installed, but that you can assume it includes the washing machine load in the side-by-side scenario above.

Still not getting it. Or maybe I am, but just don't like where it's going. In simple terms, if you can get away with shortchanging a unit one 20a laundry circuit, you can multiply that by 200, and that's where the big bucks are...

Why would anyone want to do LESS work than code minimum? Don't you get paid more by doing MORE work?

 

[LarryFine]

In practice it would further muddy how/when/if the 1500W laundry machine load should be assumed to include the washing machine.

To me, the laundry circuit always includes the waser load, plus whatever the user wants to plug in, like a gas dryer or an iron. One 120v, 20a circuit, one or more receptacles.

Sell it: "Excuse me, but the one code-required receptacle won't be easy for you to reach. If you like, I can install an additional one wherever you'll do the ironing."

 

[e57]

It is my understanding that the laundry circuit requirement pre-dates electric washers and was for other laundry equipment like irons and such.

The circuit is not intended just for the washing machine.

An old guy I used to work with said the requirement even pre-dated the electric washer - I think we also talked about that here before... The requirement and the invention of the electric motorized washer kind of coincide - but if I remember right - electric washers were not a common item when the requirement was added.

 

[Greg1707]

Irc e3901.5

Irc e3901.5

IRC states that required appliance outlets must be installed with six feet of the intended location of the appliance. I suppose any nearby receptacle could be designated a laundry area receptacle and satisfy this requirement--that is if your jurisdiction follows the IRC.