Will I have induction Issues?

Status
Not open for further replies.

luckylerado

Senior Member
Residential and Romex

I have just begun working for a contractor that is very particular about how he wants to see his guys make up their junction boxes. In switch boxes specifically. All splices are made up and stuffed into the box and all that is left sticking out of the box are the wires that go to the switch. Ground,, hot and switch leg. Then in an attempt to identify the switch leg to the trim out crew we tightly wrap the switch leg wire around the ground and hot wire with 2 wraps right up against the front of the box and tuck away the wires for drywall. For 3ways we do the same thing, wrapping the common wire, whether it be hot or switch leg. and on GFI boxes we wrap the ground wire around the hot and neutral to identify the line side. This looks very nice when done right and makes trimming out pretty much idiot proof but I am concerned that by leaving these wraps in the system we are inducing stray voltage and creating phantom loads all over the place.

I would love to hear what you folks think about this. Thanks
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
Don't stress about it.

What you have described will not cause any "stray currents" or any significant induction issues.

Chris
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
This would never cause a problem, and I do it the same way, only I don't wrap around the ground, I simply put a few wraps in the leg by itself, you can still identify it, for 3 ways, the common wraps the travellers. For GFI' loop the load side around the line. It pretty much gets straightened out on trim out, and even if you left the loops, it would hurt nothing
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Residential and Romex

. . . I am concerned that by leaving these wraps in the system we are inducing stray voltage and creating phantom loads all over the place.
If that "twisting" is giving you thoughts about "inductance" "induction" and "induced current", give a little thought to the conductors in all that 14, 12 and 10/3 that is installed.

I'd venture that a 14/3 has about two twists per foot.

Now, a common high current install for 14/3 is as a homerun (on non-AFCI circuits). Maybe there are fifty feet in that home run, or, 100 twists of the conductors in a nice spiral . . .

Looks a lot like an air core inductor to me. . . .

;)
 

luckylerado

Senior Member
Twisting, yes, as we see it however reletive to each other the conductors in the cable are not twisting at all. This is hardley the same affect as creating a tightly wraped coil around an alternating magnetic field.
 

luckylerado

Senior Member
This would never cause a problem, and I do it the same way, only I don't wrap around the ground, I simply put a few wraps in the leg by itself, you can still identify it, for 3 ways, the common wraps the travellers. For GFI' loop the load side around the line. It pretty much gets straightened out on trim out, and even if you left the loops, it would hurt nothing

I agree this method would eliminate my concerns all together. This is the way I have always done it in the past.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Twisting, yes, as we see it however reletive to each other the conductors in the cable are not twisting at all. This is hardley the same affect as creating a tightly wraped coil around an alternating magnetic field.
Think about it.

What determines the flux created around the conductor? The current.

When the current in a conductor goes three times around in three turns of winding, does the tightness or the "stretched-ness" of the windings change the amount of magnetic flux the single current creates? No.

What happens to a 14/2 strapped beside, running parallel to, the 14/3?
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Lucky,

Break it down. In normal operation, which conductors are the current carrying conductors and, at any instant in time, what is the direction and magnitude of each current?

Then, apply the right hand rule to show the magnetic field direction. (Imagine the hitchhiker's extended right hand thumb symbol, the four fingers curled toward the palm like you have a roll of quarters under your fingers). Your thumb points in the direction of the current, your fingers show the direction of the magnetic field.
on GFI boxes we wrap the ground wire around the hot and neutral to identify the line side.
The hot and the neutral are the current carrying conductors.

The current "in" on the black is equal to the current "out" on the white, they are just going in opposite directions. The current in a wire makes a magnetic field of equal strength to the magnetic field from the current of the other wire, but, (use the right hand rule) the fields are exactly in opposition. The two magnetic fields sum to exactly zero.

The EGC (as you say, "ground") that is tightly wrapped around the hot and neutral does not "see" any magnetic field. Nothing happens here.
we tightly wrap the switch leg wire around the ground and hot wire with 2 wraps right up against the front of the box and tuck away the wires for drywall.
Here, the hot and switched leg are the current carrying conductors.

The current "in" on the hot is equal to the current "out" on the switched leg.

The hot and switched leg are physically running parallel to each other except in the short distance where the two wraps occur. Where parallel, the net magnetic field present is always zero, during normal operation of the circuit (See the right hand rule exercise for the GFI wire wrapping/marking above.) Nothing happens in the parallel part of the wiring.

The little area of the two wraps is a little more complex. The two wraps of the switched leg represent an air core electromagnet of two turns and creates a magnetic field at 90? to the magnetic field created by the hot conductor within the center of the air core.

These two magnetic fields don't "see" each other so they don't add or subtract.

Use the right hand rule (above) to show yourself the direction of the magnetic lines of force coming off of a given wire. It will probably be easiest to start with the straight "hot" wire inside the wraps. Imagine the magnetic lines of force coming off the hot wire . . . you'll note that they are in the direction of the wraps of the switched leg.

As the magnetic field of the hot expands and collapses it induces a current in the wrap, the switched leg, at 90? to the run of the wire. This is basically an eddy current going from side to side of the cross section of the conductor. This current doesn't go down the length of the conductor.

Conversely, the magnetic field created by the wraps of the switched leg, while twice as strong as the field created by the straight hot wire, is also inducing a current in the hot wire that is flowing across the cross section of the conductor, not down the length of the run of the hot wire.

End result, where parallel, zero induction, where wrapped, trapped eddy current.

Now, the two wraps of the switched leg is also an air core inductor. The current in the inductor, as it increases and decreases, creates an inflating and collapsing magnetic field that the inductor itself is within. The changing magnetic field induces a "back EMF" in the wire of the inductor that is the "impedance" that is the reactive inductance. This effect is to "choke" the change of the current strength and direction.

Also, in the confines of the two wraps, the two magnetic fields present, at right angle to each other, are creating two currents in the "ground" wire. Those two currents are at right angles to each other, within the "ground". One of the currents is in the direction of the run of the "ground".

Which one?

The current induced from the hot wire that is running parallel to the ground, but only for the magnetic coupling occurring within the confines of the two wraps. The tighter the wraps, the smaller the area. The smaller the area the fewer lines of magnetic force involved. The fewer lines of magnetic force, the lower the current induced. Within the confines of the two wraps, the hot and ground, in effect, form the windings of a 1:1 air core transformer with one turn in each winding. The flux density that can be created is minuscule. That is, really tiny, so tiny as to be of no engineering importance to the macro scale of the general lighting circuit.
For 3ways we do the same thing, wrapping the common wire, whether it be hot or switch leg.
Same as the switch above.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Your right, I worry too much. I have to make up for all the slackers. Bite me.

Play nice, that is hardly warranted. You are stressing over nothing the short lengths and minimal current are not going to affect anything, and can hardly be no worse than the haphazard methods some Romex slingers use or in reality do not use, they just push and stuff.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top