inspecting the permit

[fishin' electrician]

I kinda like that bench seat right there, take a load off while your tying a load in.

 

[suemarkp]

There's also the matter of recourse. He has a permit for an HVAC install. That install violates the working space of that service. So deny the inspection for that HVAC unit. Once they move the HVAC unit, and it has no violations associated with it, I think the inspector is done. There could be other violations in that existing service, but what can the inspector do? He should not reject the HVAC job for an unrelated violation. If it was a real life saftey issue, he could try to red tag the whole house. But if there is no permit for those unrelated things that have obvious violations, I don't know what he can do about it.

 

[petersonra]

In looking at the picture, I think you could get the working space by moving the PB on the right above the other one (or maybe to the left of or above the meter), and scooting the HVAC unit to the right as far as it will go on the pad.

 

[lakee911]

In looking at the picture, I think you could get the working space by moving the PB on the right above the other one (or maybe to the left of or above the meter), and scooting the HVAC unit to the right as far as it will go on the pad.

Have fun extending the branch conductors 4' ... move the unit. I think the ductwork could be extended far easier.

 

[e57]

And you guys wonder why people go to such lengths to avoid permits and inspections. Trivial nonsense like this is just another reason to hire someone who will just do the work and not expose yourself to thousands of dollars worth of unneeded extra costs.

It would be one thing if there was an actual definable hazard, but a possible minor and fairly trivial code violation?

As a guy who occassionaly has to jamb himself between panels and grounded conductive objects - I don't see it as trivial and see it as a definable hazard - almost as much as doing the same barefoot and wet.

 

[One-eyed Jack]

As a guy who occassionaly has to jamb himself between panels and grounded conductive objects - I don't see it as trivial and see it as a definable hazard - almost as much as doing the same barefoot and wet.

In total agreement . Petersonra when you have to stand on your head and jam your face within six inches of the control and contactor area the hazard will become much more apparent. The code requires work space for equipment other than electrical,ie HVAC equip. Some of us have to work in the crap others leave behind. I make it a point to all of the contractors,work space will be adhered to for all trades. If it says 36 inches for a handicap stall or 36 inches in front of a distribution panel . I don't accept 35 15/16. You knew going in that it was 36 and 36 it will be. e57 gets his space on my inspects.

 

[Volta]

And you guys wonder why people go to such lengths to avoid permits and inspections. Trivial nonsense like this is just another reason to hire someone who will just do the work and not expose yourself to thousands of dollars worth of unneeded extra costs.

It would be one thing if there was an actual definable hazard, but a possible minor and fairly trivial code violation?

It is an easily defined hazard. Lack of safe working space. Not trivial. Easy death.

 

[jaylectricity]

For those of you that are saying the existing installation is not part of this permit, the question is, was a permit pulled before? If not, the AHJ may order the whole installation to be removed. Double permit fee for doing it over.

I had a situation where the town found out about an illegal night club in the basement of a McMansion. The work was not permitted and ordered to be removed. I removed that wiring and it broke my heart because the wiring was done to code in the neatest and most workmanlike manner I had ever seen. The original wiring on the home was horrible and met minimum code. I'm sure the same GC and EC did every house on the street, bid at the lowest price. But I had to leave that there.

They couldn't pull a permit for the new work because 1. I'm sure you can't have a night club in a residential zone and 2. Needham is a dry town. You can't buy alcohol there.

 

[e57]

Needham is a dry town. You can't buy alcohol there.

REALLY?!?!? I always wondered about those kids from that town... (grew up in E.Somerville)

Anyway - here in SF you get $10k fine, and you get double permit fees, and the chance to do it again... Yet there is soooo much unpermited work...

 

[SmithBuilt]

And you guys wonder why people go to such lengths to avoid permits and inspections. Trivial nonsense like this is just another reason to hire someone who will just do the work and not expose yourself to thousands of dollars worth of unneeded extra costs.

It would be one thing if there was an actual definable hazard, but a possible minor and fairly trivial code violation?

I agree. It's easy enough to find someone who will do this install without a permit. The same guys beat me on estimates everyday because they are willing to cut corners.


I don't see how this is dangerous. You are not suppose to be working on live equipment!

I do feel for the home owner in this case though. Who should be responsible for repairs? Certainly the original installer, but I'm sure he did not pull a permit. So finding him would be impossible. Even if you could find him would the inspections department stand up for the HO and make him pay for the repairs. Of course the replacement installer should have called the inspector before touching anything.

 

[Volta]

I don't see how this is dangerous. You are not suppose to be working on live equipment!

That is not true.

 

[joebell]

I agree. It's easy enough to find someone who will do this install without a permit. The same guys beat me on estimates everyday because they are willing to cut corners.


I don't see how this is dangerous. You are not suppose to be working on live equipment!

Who should be responsible for repairs? Of course the replacement installer should have called the inspector before touching anything.

What's this "shoulda been brought to the inspector" crap. Any qualified licensed electrician should recognize that the original installation was not code compliant and communicated such to the HVAC contractor. This unit should have been relocated upon replacement and the contractors involved should be responsible for the relocation.

 

[One-eyed Jack]

I don't see how this is dangerous. You are not suppose to be working on live equipment

Kinda hard to troubleshoot DEAD equipment. We are there to find out why the heat does not work at 11 pm and it is 20 degrees outside. I can't get enough room to see the controls.

 

[petersonra]

Kinda hard to troubleshoot DEAD equipment. We are there to find out why the heat does not work at 11 pm and it is 20 degrees outside. I can't get enough room to see the controls.

I think we can all agree it is inconvenient to work on. I am not sure what electrical equipment stuffed behind the unit would likely need to be serviced live in the future. A PB usually either works or does not work. I don't see much else there. Am I missing something stuffed behind the HVAC unit that might need to be worked on live?

 

[One-eyed Jack]

I think we can all agree it is inconvenient to work on. I am not sure what electrical equipment stuffed behind the unit would likely need to be serviced live in the future. A PB usually either works or does not work. I don't see much else there. Am I missing something stuffed behind the HVAC unit that might need to be worked on live?

Oftentimes the control access is on the back side of the condensing units which is placed toward the house. You apparently don't do much in the way of trouble calls or you would know this. This was not a slam just an observation. So,yes you missed it. The guys that do this type of work need space to work in. The older and fatter the more space required. Yes I am the older and slightly fatter version.

 

[petersonra]

Oftentimes the control access is on the back side of the condensing units which is placed toward the house. You apparently don't do much in the way of trouble calls or you would know this. This was not a slam just an observation. So,yes you missed it. The guys that do this type of work need space to work in. The older and fatter the more space required. Yes I am the older and slightly fatter version.

I am not familiar with this type of equipment at all. I even had to Google what a "gas pack" was.

It never really occurred to me that some one would install an HVAC unit so you can't get at the controls to work on it. Maybe the OP can tell us where the access is. That would make a big difference to me. If it was just the PB, I would not care enough to make the HO spend a ton of money moving anything.

I am also an older and fatter version.

I won't be out in the cold trouble shooting this kind of stuff, but I have been out in the cold troubleshooting other things that needed it from time to time.

 

[mel bax]

I think we can all agree it is inconvenient to work on. I am not sure what electrical equipment stuffed behind the unit would likely need to be serviced live in the future.

The issue here is not working on the package unit. The panel behind the unit is a 200A main breaker unit. It has unfused wiring inside it, with more circuits coming out of it besides the package unit.

The working clearances for electrical panels have been in the code for at least 60 yrs. How the job was done originally this way is immaterial. A contractor should never make a blatent violation such as this.It was the contractors responsibility not to violate the Building Codes.

References to the “Grandfather Clause” only apply to installations that met State Electrical Code at the initial installation, but may not meet current Codes.. This would have been a violation if installed anytime in the last 60 years.

 

[SmithBuilt]

That is not true.

I thought osha does not allow work on live equipment. Exception being life critical equipment. (just referring to the panel here, not troubleshooting the unit)

What's this "shoulda been brought to the inspector" crap.

It's not crap. It's called working with the inspector to head off a problem. Do it all the time. You as the inspector can always say no you won't allow it.

Any qualified licensed electrician should recognize that the original installation was not code compliant and communicated such to the HVAC contractor.

I agree. I would not have done it.

This unit should have been relocated upon replacement and the contractors involved should be responsible for the relocation.

Your right. But I personally wouldn't worry about this install. There are bigger fish to fry. Yet somehow they always get away.

Kinda hard to troubleshoot DEAD equipment. We are there to find out why the heat does not work at 11 pm and it is 20 degrees outside. I can't get enough room to see the controls.

Being a gaspack, the controls are on the front of this unit. If it was a split system moving it would be a breeze.

 

[Volta]

I thought osha does not allow work on live equipment. Exception being life critical equipment. (just referring to the panel here, not troubleshooting the unit)

Define work.

That is the idea and intent, but not the rule.
To correctly verify that the equipment has been deenergized, one must:
1. Determine sources;
2. Disconnect;
3. Visually verify;
4. LOTO;
5. Test for voltage;
6. Ground parts (if needed).

To perform steps 2 through 6, employees must be using the proper PPE, because the equipment has not been verified as being placed into a safe work condition.

That information is found in 70E, The scope of which is to protect employees.

And of course, for troubleshooting, generally voltage, current, or thermal measuments will need to be taken with the equipment energized.

 

[joebell]

There are bigger fish to fry. Yet somehow they always get away.

Very true Tim