Minimum Residential Electric Size by code ?

[480sparky]

That's fine, but the OP question did not state there be a dwelling, only that it be residential... so s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g that technicality, the answer would be 15A :roll:

How do you wire the required 20a bath, laundry, and 2 SABCs with a single 15a circuit?

 

[Smart $]

How do you wire the required 20a bath, laundry, and 2 SABCs with a single 15a circuit?

Hmmm.... residential property, no dwelling. What makes you think those circuits are required? What if it just has a barn on the property?

 

[kwired]

That's fine, but the OP question did not state there be a dwelling, only that it be residential... so s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g that technicality, the answer would be 15A :roll:

If OP meant "dwelling" but said "residential" my post answers his question.

If he meant "residential" meaning anything but a "dwelling" your post answers his question.

Only the OP knows what he meant.

 

[Smart $]

Care to share?

I wouldn't say a violation, but I'd confirm that the Board of Building Standards approved the amendment to the NEC. Here's a link to the form for such approval, and law codes can be gleaned from it.

That said, ordinances electrical in nature are typically approved and adopted via city council, and quite often none of the council members or the city's solicitor(s) are aware of this requirement.

 

[480sparky]

Hmmm.... residential property, no dwelling. What makes you think those circuits are required? What if it just has a barn on the property?

Silly me. I thought people resided in residences.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I wouldn't say a violation, but I'd confirm that the Board of Building Standards approved the amendment to the NEC. Here's a link to the form for such approval, and law codes can be gleaned from it.

That said, ordinances electrical in nature are typically approved and adopted via city council, and quite often none of the council members or the city's solicitor(s) are aware of this requirement.

We have ONE code for all of Ohio. Any changes, approved by the BBS, apply to everyone everywhere.

 

[lakee911]

As you are local, be aware that Upper Arlington has passed an ordinance requiring (generally) not less than a 150 amp service.


Some exceptions apply.

That is in violation of the RCO (Residential Code of Ohio).

I wouldn't say a violation, but I'd confirm that the Board of Building Standards approved the amendment to the NEC. Here's a link to the form for such approval, and law codes can be gleaned from it.

That said, ordinances electrical in nature are typically approved and adopted via city council, and quite often none of the council members or the city's solicitor(s) are aware of this requirement.

We have ONE code for all of Ohio. Any changes, approved by the BBS, apply to everyone everywhere.

Not that I do much work in UA, but what is the consensus? 100 or 150? I find it odd that they didn't just make it 200A. It's also odd that it has to be new, previously unused. Edit: Funny thing, though, it allows you to replace 100A in-kind, but only new installs have to be 150A....not many new installs going in to that part of town, no?

I typically do designs for industrial locations. If they are 100A, 1ph, it's typically a remote site ... never a dwelling.

Thanks for the heads up, though.

 

[lakee911]

Silly me. I thought people resided in residences.

People? I thought we were talking about residers and dwellers.

 

[jxofaltrds]

For Ohio. This is just bits and pieces. See below for link to read all the requirements.

"101.3 Intent.

The purpose of this code is to establish uniform requirements for the erection, construction, repair, alteration, and maintenance of residential buildings, including construction of industrialized units. Such requirements shall relate to the conservation of energy, safety and sanitation of buildings for their intended use and occupancy with consideration for the following: "

NOTE: uniform. So if the code says 100Amp, a 150AMP 'requirement' would be in conflict.

"3.1. A local governing authority shall, and any person may, notify the Ohio Board of Building Standards of any regulation the local governing authority adopts related to content within the scope of this code and request that the Board of Building Standards determine whether that regulation conflicts with the state residential building code."

"3.1.3. If the board determines that a conflict exists and that the regulation is necessary to protect the health or safety of the persons within the local governing authority?s jurisdiction, the board shall adopt a rule to incorporate the regulation into the state residential building code. Until the rule becomes a part of the state residential building code, the board shall grant a temporary variance to the local governing authority and any similarly situated local governing authority to which the board determines the temporary variance should apply."

From: http://publicecodes.citation.com/st...b4v06_1_sec001_par002.htm?bu=OH-P-2005-000004

 

[Smart $]

We have ONE code for all of Ohio. Any changes, approved by the BBS, apply to everyone everywhere.

Not true. Read on...

For Ohio. This is just bits and pieces. See below for link to read all the requirements.

"101.3 Intent.

The purpose of this code is to establish uniform requirements for the erection, construction, repair, alteration, and maintenance of residential buildings, including construction of industrialized units. Such requirements shall relate to the conservation of energy, safety and sanitation of buildings for their intended use and occupancy with consideration for the following: "

NOTE: uniform. So if the code says 100Amp, a 150AMP 'requirement' would be in conflict.

Actually that can be viewed as non-conflicting. Since 100A is the Code minimum, a local 150A minimum does not "conflict" with the Code.

If the ordinance specified a lesser rating of, say 60A... that would be conflicting.


I notice you skipped two subsections, the latter of which is quite pertinent in this matter. They are as follows:

3.1.1. Not later than 60 days after receiving a notice to review local regulations for conflict the board shall determine, based upon a recommendation from the advisory committee, whether the regulation conflicts with the state residential building code and shall notify any person who submitted the notice and the local governing authority that adopted the regulation of the board?s determination.

3.1.2. If the board determines that a conflict does not exist, the board shall take no further action with regard to the regulation. If the board determines a conflict exists and the regulation is not necessary to protect the health or safety of the persons within the local governing authority?s jurisdiction, the regulation is not valid and the local governing authority may not enforce the regulation.

So, as you can see, how a conflict is determined weighs heavily on the outcome.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Not true. Read on...


Actually that can be viewed as non-conflicting. Since 100A is the Code minimum, a local 150A minimum does not "conflict" with the Code.

If the ordinance specified a lesser rating of, say 60A... that would be conflicting.


I notice you skipped two subsections, the latter of which is quite pertinent in this matter. They are as follows:

​

So, as you can see, how a conflict is determined weighs heavily on the outcome.

Sorry to tell you that it is in conflict with the RCO.
I can say this because I have attended both state 'mandated' class for those certified to enforce the RCO.

This would be like requiring 2X10's when the code says 2X8's meet code.
This example and yours can not be enforced.

 

[DesignElectric]

Resi Service Size

Resi Service Size

Residential service size is determined by Art 230, however governed by Art 220.
Check out Art. 230.31
Yes, there are minimum requirments,such as 60A., however your service must be size per you home's electrical load + or - demand loads which are easily outlined in the examples near the end of the code.
Design

 

[Smart $]

Sorry to tell you that it is in conflict with the RCO.
I can say this because I have attended both state 'mandated' class for those certified to enforce the RCO.

This would be like requiring 2X10's when the code says 2X8's meet code.
This example and yours can not be enforced.

I respect your position... and what you were taught in class does not suprise me in the least.

Yet what you are saying is that there can be no such thing as a local amendment to the RCO. Only a local addendum can exist, at best. This is contrary to law (ORC) and outright abuse of authority. If it is as you say it is, it will likely be challenged at some point.

For the sake of discussion, read the example on the "request for determination of conflict" form. Do you think that example would be given if totally in conflict? Judging from what you say, submitting a request to modify code locally, perhaps even for statewide consideration, would be a waste of paper, ink, and time

That said, the UA ordinance will likely never affect me... but if I were one of the guys above that may be affected, I'd be firing off some emails to investigate whether a determination has already been made, and the result thereof.... and if no such determination had been made, I'd submit one myself.

EDIT: Question for you... If you were a UA inspector, what would you do?

 

[iwire]

Residential service size is determined by Art 230, however governed by Art 220.
Check out Art. 230.31
Yes, there are minimum requirments,such as 60A., however your service must be size per you home's electrical load + or - demand loads which are easily outlined in the examples near the end of the code.
Design

Nothing in 230.31 requires a minimum service size.

Can you point out a code section that requires a 60 amp service?

 

[jxofaltrds]

I respect your position... and what you were taught in class does not suprise me in the least.

Yet what you are saying is that there can be no such thing as a local amendment to the RCO. Only a local addendum can exist, at best. This is contrary to law (ORC) and outright abuse of authority. If it is as you say it is, it will likely be challenged at some point.

For the sake of discussion, read the example on the "request for determination of conflict" form. Do you think that example would be given if totally in conflict? Judging from what you say, submitting a request to modify code locally, perhaps even for statewide consideration, would be a waste of paper, ink, and time

That said, the UA ordinance will likely never affect me... but if I were one of the guys above that may be affected, I'd be firing off some emails to investigate whether a determination has already been made, and the result thereof.... and if no such determination had been made, I'd submit one myself.

EDIT: Question for you... If you were a UA inspector, what would you do?

Dublin and the state fought over 'local' rule. I do not know the outcome.

If I was a UA inspector I would have a problem because the BBS could revoke my certification if I tried to enforce anything other than the RCO or the OBC.

The purpose of the RCO was to allow contractors to work in any area with one set of rules.
No longer could the local guy hold you hostage if you did not do things his way. It now allows the contractor or others to take complaints to the state. This was not possible before.

I am not sure what you are asking me about the total conflict in the form??

 

[Smart $]

Dublin and the state fought over 'local' rule. I do not know the outcome.

Me either.

Also, if you've visited the BBS website, I certainly cannot find any access to any request for determinations.

There is access to Board of Building Appeals decisions, but unless one knows the specific case numbers, you have to open them one-by-one.

What it amounts to, even though this type of information is a matter of public record, it is made very difficult to access without intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the BBS.

If I was a UA inspector I would have a problem because the BBS could revoke my certification if I tried to enforce anything other than the RCO or the OBC.

Gee, I knew that much before I asked... so the question remains.

The purpose of the RCO was to allow contractors to work in any area with one set of rules.
No longer could the local guy hold you hostage if you did not do things his way. It now allows the contractor or others to take complaints to the state. This was not possible before.

You are aware there are several jurisdictions (I believe seven) that have a "state-approved" local board of appeals...???

I am not sure what you are asking me about the total conflict in the form??

The following is the example given on the request for determiantion form. Why give an example as such? According to what you say, it is an automatic conflict to change numbers. (Note: Strikeout formatting is not allowed on this forum TTBOMK, so only underlining indicates RCO to be "amended".)

* Example of a submitted ordinance with changes made to RCO shown in strikeout and
underline:
RCO SECTION R302 LOCATION ON LOT
R302.1 Exterior Walls. Exterior walls with a fire separation distance
of 3 5 feet or less shall have not less than a one-hour fire-resistive
rating with exposure from both sides.
Projections shall not extend to a point closer than 2 4 feet from the
line used to determine the fire separation distance.
Exception: Detached garages accessory to a dwelling located within 2
5 feet of a lot line may have roof eave projections not exceeding 4
inches.

​

 

[jxofaltrds]

Are you talking about this?

"SECTION 112 BOARD OF APPEALS

112.1 General.

In order to hear and decide appeals of orders, decisions or determinations made by the residential building official relative to the application of this code, there shall be a local appeals process within the certified jurisdiction."

Yes I read that example.
IMHO anything that is different from the RCO is a confict.

There are a lot of things that I would like to see done but the code is to keep me and others from requiring what we want.

 

[Smart $]

Are you talking about this?

"SECTION 112 BOARD OF APPEALS

112.1 General.

In order to hear and decide appeals of orders, decisions or determinations made by the residential building official relative to the application of this code, there shall be a local appeals process within the certified jurisdiction."

No. I am referring to accessing information on request for determination of local amendments, but used access to appeals as an example of the difficulty level of attaining such information. The latter is accessible but unless you know the "case specifics", you have to go through them one by one. Access to appeals is via a database search (click here), where you will see what I mean. The search terms are limited.

Now, getting back to the request for determination of local amendments, how are we as tradespeople supposed to know whether a local amendment is enforceable? For instance, take the UA ordinance as an example. I know you percieve it as conflicting and unenforceable... but sorry to say, yours and non-BBS opinions don't count in this matter... and we're back to the question at hand.

Yes I read that example.
IMHO anything that is different from the RCO is a confict.

I believe anyone reading this thread is already aware of your position But the question is what constitutes a conflict, and if the example is an outright conflict, why is it used as an example if it will automatically be "rejected"?

There are a lot of things that I would like to see done but the code is to keep me and others from requiring what we want.

...and with respect to your position, it seems to be e-e-effectual... and I commend you for your disposition