Wisdom on a Bid

[Sierrasparky]

Who said that the plans were performed by an EE, there plenty of plan services, that do CAD work?!!!!

There are plenty of CAD drawings done in foreign counties.

State and/or County requirements might want a load calc summary, can't you fill out one to submit on your job?

I'm sure you ask an EE every time to check your math when you have some math problems, or some submittals, since you keep them in such high regard!

Is an ROI only submitted to an Engineer what about the Architect, or only to an EE, I think not!

OK I change my point to include whoever did the site survey and drew the plans. Is that better. I realize there are some good and honest EE out there. In my personal experience unless they are hired by the EC they are doing whatever they can to help out the owner or the GC at the expense of the EC.
That is my opinion and I will stick to IT!:-?

 

[acwservices]

I have a customer who asked me to bid his project. They only have a 200 amp service on the house. The bid calls for using the "existing 400 amp service" which is non-existent. I told the guy about this error. He says that the other two contractors arre going to use the 200 amp and just set a sub-panel off to the side. (There are only two empty spaces left.) I have serious mis-givings about going against what is written down. My initial remarks and ROI were tossed. ANY pros and cons would be appreciated.

From the prints.

Just as a point of information, that load calc is not calculated correctly. According to article 220.83 of the 2008 NEC, you add up all of the connected load, except for the AC's, and then apply the demand factors. You also use 100% of the first 8,000, not 10,000, of the existing and additional loads. If you do this, this comes to 47,470 va, divided by 240v, this comes to 198 amps.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Just as a point of information, that load calc is not calculated correctly. According to article 220.83 of the 2008 NEC, you add up all of the connected load, except for the AC's, and then apply the demand factors. You also use 100% of the first 8,000, not 10,000, of the existing and additional loads. If you do this, this comes to 47,470 va, divided by 240v, this comes to 198 amps.

So then maybe it was done by the Owner himself.
Who cares.
Still someone is trying to pass some BS off on the Bidder and even the plan checker. The situation remains the same.

 

[220/221]

Simple.

1. Bid he job using the existing service.

2. Make a BIG note that the service must be upgraded as per plans.

3. Bid the 400A service seperately. Someone obviously has to contact POCO to see what will be required for their end. I once had to horizontally bore thru two of the neighbors yards to do a 400A upgrade. I think the tab on that was $10K

I'm not an EE but this 4000 sq ft house with 3 AC's falls into my ballpark method (over 4K ' and 3 AC's).

I say it needs a 400. It's only an extra $500 (cost) for the service equipment but the new underground (I assume it's UG) can be costly.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Did I miss what this addition is? It looks like an apartment being added to a residence, is that what it is?

 

[220/221]

Probably a guest/maid/mother in law quarters.

 

[jumper]

Just as a point of information, that load calc is not calculated correctly. According to article 220.83 of the 2008 NEC, you add up all of the connected load, except for the AC's, and then apply the demand factors. You also use 100% of the first 8,000, not 10,000, of the existing and additional loads. If you do this, this comes to 47,470 va, divided by 240v, this comes to 198 amps.

Nice catch.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Also you never add two load calcs together and call it one!
In other words you don't take the load of the exisiting home which has a derating and then add a second home which also has a derating. Does not work this way.
I think what the OP's concern is how to get the job and not get screwed. But the OP needs to add a reply so whe can know for sure.

As I said earlier somone is playing around here. The only one it affects is the EC and His pocket.

 

[gadfly56]

I'm with i-wire on this one. In your proposal's terms and conditions, simply exclude any service upgrade.

If you get the job, submit a change order for the service upgrade for code compliance. You know someone is going to have to upgrade the service, but you need to play the game and get the job in the first place.

I have a small job where I bid to the drawing for an EC. It's part of a remodel on an existing space. The architect spec'd three smoke detectors for a space that needed six. I bid three, per the drawing. We got the job and I put in a change order to add the needed detectors. The EC and architect hemmed and hawed a bit, but the spacing requirement was more than clear. Change order approved. Had I bid the extra detectors originally when others did not, I might not have gotten the job at all.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Had I bid the extra detectors originally when others did not, I might not have gotten the job at all.

Unfortunatly the architect could have said it's your're fault you are the EC and must do a code compliant install. I'm sure the plans said as per code. Even if your bid said as per plans, You got lucky there! Any time you get the change in those circumstances you need to feel lucky. If I was the GC I'd say tough luck!

 

[bradleyelectric]

Unfortunatly the architect could have said it's your're fault you are the EC and must do a code compliant install. I'm sure the plans said as per code. Even if your bid said as per plans, You got lucky there! Any time you get the change in those circumstances you need to feel lucky. If I was the GC I'd say tough luck!

I bid a scope of work. The plans called for 3 smokes, why would I reengineer an engineered job for bid. If it came up that the engineer was wrong it's not my pocket. Remember the GC makes money off my change orders also. You submit the change to him and he adds his part and passes it up. Why would he say though? Doesn't he know what he's doing?

 

[RETRAINDAILY]

I see you are in Arizona are the other bids from a Contractor?
it sounds like they are tring to get around a permit by not getting APS or SRP involved.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Why not just add a single 100a service and meter the in-laws separately?

 

[iwire]

Why not just add a single 100a service and meter the in-laws separately?

You cannot add a second 'service' you can add a second meter but the service conductors would still have to carry the total calculated load.

 

[Dan W]

You pointed out the error & they still want you to bid it, right? Either bid it with a 400a service or don't bid it. I would walk away. If I can't do the job right, I don't do it-period.

 

[iwire]

You pointed out the error & they still want you to bid it, right? Either bid it with a 400a service or don't bid it. I would walk away. If I can't do the job right, I don't do it-period.

Dan welcome to the forum.

There is nothing wrong at all with biding it, winning it and installing it to print. The inspector will ultimately decide if it needs a new service or not and if it does need a new service that will be a profitable extra.

 

[satcom]

Dan welcome to the forum.

There is nothing wrong at all with biding it, winning it and installing it to print. The inspector will ultimately decide if it needs a new service or not and if it does need a new service that will be a profitable extra.

Your point make sense, and would allow him to stay in the game.

 

[Chamuit]

Load Calculations

Load Calculations

Okay, I redid the load calcs myself. After looking over the pictures I had of the panel, and using that info, I came up with 225A as the load on this service.

Moron Residence

Load Calculation
Non-Motor Loads
3VA per ft? 4059 ft? 12177 VA
Appliance circuits 2 ea 3000 VA
Laundry 1500 VA
Refrigerator 1500 VA
Dish Washer 1500 VA
Dryer 9000 VA
Water Heater 0 VA
Microwave 1000 VA
Range/Oven 8000 VA
37677 VA
1st 10kVA -10000 VA ? 10000 VA
27677 VA
Remainder @ 40% 11070.8 VA ? 11070.8 VA

Motor Loads
1st Heat Pump/Air Conditioner 125% 34 A 240 V 8160 VA ? 10200 VA
2nd Heat Pump/Air Conditioner 100% 34 A 240 V 8160 VA ? 8160 VA
3rd Heat Pump/Air Conditioner 100% 9 A 240 V 2160 VA ? 2160 VA
1st Air Handler/Furnace 125% 8 A 120 V 960 VA ? 1200 VA
2nd Air Handler/Furnace 100% 8 A 120 V 960 VA ? 960 VA
3rd Air Handler/Furnace 100% 8 A 120 V 768 VA ? 768 VA

Pool Motor 100% 12 A 240 V 2304 VA ? 2304 VA
Spa 100% 38 A 240 V 7296 VA ? 7296 VA
54118.8 VA
? 240 V
225 A

This is a single family home and they are putting on a "Casita/Mother-in-Law's Quarters" to the house. It will be attached.

 

[Chamuit]

Why not just add a single 100a service and meter the in-laws separately?

Here in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area you typically can have only one meter per residential lot. I say typically becase the POCOs can change their own rules with the right justification.

Another reason is that the Casita (as they are calling it) is attached to the main house.

 

[Chamuit]

Also you never add two load calcs together and call it one!
In other words you don't take the load of the exisiting home which has a derating and then add a second home which also has a derating. Does not work this way.
I think what the OP's concern is how to get the job and not get screwed. But the OP needs to add a reply so whe can know for sure.

As I said earlier somone is playing around here. The only one it affects is the EC and His pocket.

All of the load calcs were done by the Architect. And, yes, I don't want to get the job and have to own a 400 amp service because of someone elses error and because of bidding pressures.