Preforming my first live service changeout

[iwire]

Bob, I ask again, would you apply that same logic to the thousands of POCO workers who do live work every day?

Tony,

It seems your basic argument is that if they have to do it we should too.

I cannot agree.

I think they would strongly disagree with you, or else we would all be in the dark. :grin:

Actully they can pull cutouts and ground circuits out, in the future you will likely see more cutouts installed so smaller sections can be isolated.

Perhaps this is simply a topic that you and I will never agree on.

Yeah think?

But if an electrician wishes to be trained and do this task, more power to them (pun intended) and both training and appropriate amendments to laws and regulations should happen.

For what reason, why should electricians work hot?

I do agree that if it is something a person is not comfortable with, they should not attempt it or attempt to be trained in that task, or be forced or coerced into doing it.

Yeah even trained people die doing what they are trained for, again I want a real reason to risk my life that goes beyond someones ability to watch Oprah.

I have, under very careful supervision, touched a live 12kv lug in a padmount switch. It was an interesting experience and did not make me overly uncomfortable.

For what reason did you do this beyond just showing off?

I have learned to respect electricity, not fear it. Being aware of consequences is a big foundation towards that respect.

Oh well that makes it all OK. :roll:

I find it odd you seem to be far more worried about AV equipment surviving an MWBC than a human surviving live work that does not have to be done.

In the past I have done all kinds of live work, I drilled bus bars leaving a power company vault supplying a 4000 amp switch. We did this hot and this was before cordless drills so we had to cut the EGC off of the drill before we touched it to the bus bar.

I had no fear, it was just a 208 service 120 to ground no big deal ......... of course I had no clue at all about the potential arc flash that could have killed both of us.

Why did we do it live? ....... to keep the power on to a large apartment building ........ yeah that was worth it.


To me the bottom line is this, if it is only about money and convenience there is no reason to tie a service in hot. Put me in a situation where working hot could save a life and I would work hot ......... but when is that ever the case?

It is time to put our foot down and demand the power company start killing the power. It is coming, 70 E is kicking in big time in my area and I have no doubt it will change how all of us work.

There is usually no compelling reason to work live other then being 'manly' and that has killed many men.

The fact linemen have to work live does not change the fact my kids like love their daddy to come home.

 

[mivey]

To me the bottom line is this, if it is only about money and convenience there is no reason to tie a service in hot. Put me in a situation where working hot could save a life and I would work hot ......... but when is that ever the case?

It is time to put our foot down and demand the power company start killing the power. It is coming, 70 E is kicking in big time in my area and I have no doubt it will change how all of us work.

There is usually no compelling reason to work live other then being 'manly' and that has killed many men.

The fact linemen have to work live does not change the fact my kids like love their daddy to come home.

That is true. And extrapolating that point: there is no reason the linemen "have" to work live other than money. It is just a whole lot more money. Still not enough to cover the value of a life.

 

[zappy]

I suggest wetting the area with salt water, using an aluminum ladder and remember gloves are for babies. :grin:

Gloves? I can't even tie my shoes when I'm wearing gloves. How are you going to re-connect with gloves on?

 

[zog]

That is true. And extrapolating that point: there is no reason the linemen "have" to work live other than money. It is just a whole lot more money. Still not enough to cover the value of a life.

The new safety rules in the NESC are pretty new, 70E has been around for 31 years with 10 years of the arc flash PPE regulations and just now some electricians are starting to follow it. The utilities will be changing the way they work soon too. Not to mention they deal with lower fault currents than LV equipment typically sees and they are usually working in open air which greatly reduces the Ei's compared to equipment in a cubic box, like a panel. mcc, or switchgear cell.

 

[KP2]

From IWIRE in another thread, http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=122942&highlight=service+change

In the quoted thread I agreed with how Denis peformed a live cut and tap.

I called CL&P (the POCO were I am in CT) and they said thier proceedure is to keep the service grounded as long as possible.

I also learned that CL&P will come to the job and disconnect the service drop from the street, and give a call back contact person to call when we are done and they will come out that day and reconnect. All with no charge to the EC or the home owner. And usaully can set up an appt. with 5 days of calling.

CL&P will also remove the drop all together for tree work and put it back after the tree is down.

 

[mxslick]

Bob, My argument is not that an EC should HAVE to do live work for service reconnects, but simply that if proper training is done and required PPE is used, it should be something this is permitted rather than the "blanket" prohibition that is the current rule.

In the past I have done all kinds of live work, I drilled bus bars leaving a power company vault supplying a 4000 amp switch. We did this hot and this was before cordless drills so we had to cut the EGC off of the drill before we touched it to the bus bar.

I had no fear, it was just a 208 service 120 to ground no big deal ......... of course I had no clue at all about the potential arc flash that could have killed both of us.

Let me ask you this: back then, not knowing what you know now, could you or would you have refused to do that work?

I would think that now that you are more experienced that you were then you would be MORE inclined to be comfortable/willing to work live with the proper PPE and training.

Why did we do it live? ....... to keep the power on to a large apartment building ........ yeah that was worth it.

A large apt building was more important than your own life and safety? I'm really confused by your position on that. How long would the outage have been to do that task dead? Most likely shorter than the time it took to do it live I'd bet.

Another thing: as I had mentioned earlier, there are many homes banked onto a secondary lateral in our POCO's jurisdiction so to do an outage for a simple service reconnect would require at least two crews pulling cutouts on multiple transformers and putting a lot of homes/apts in the dark.

Finally, the POCO at least here isn't in any rush to add cutouts..they sure didn't after the seagull incident I posted about HERE..

So a simple reconnect that I have seen done (and done myself) that takes about 20 minutes would require at least double or even triple that to do.

Like it or not, the POCO's have a mandate to keep the juice on and they do not like to lose revenue if it can be avoided. (I agree that that is NOT a good excuse to expose persons to hazards, but again, and the point that seems to keep getting lost, is that these people are specifically trained to work things hot!)

As for the padmount lug, I did it because I could. It was for me a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Does than mean I consider myself trained or qualified to do it again? No way. Would I do it again? No, as I see no reason to do so. I have also flown backseat in an F-4 Phantom 300 feet above the ground doing 600 mph, placing my life solely in the hands of the pilot. Why? Because I could, it was a ride I earned during my time in the service. And another once in a lifetime opportunity.

Again Bob I have the highest respect for you, but I cannot fathom nor agree with your position on this topic, just as you do not agree with me on MWBCs.

<snip> And extrapolating that point: there is no reason the linemen "have" to work live other than money. It is just a whole lot more money. Still not enough to cover the value of a life.

I disagree with the first part of your comment, they have to work live because like it or not, our society is heavily dependent on electricity for many things, including safety (such as traffic controls, hospitals and processes and facilities where loss of power can be dangerous). Even hospitals, despite having comprehensive backup power, suffer severe limitations on the service they can render during a power outage, just ask your local hospital next time you go.

I fully agree that the money they make is not enough to cover the value of a life. But I can tell you that the military falls under that same situation.

Bottom line:

For RESIDENTIAL, 208/120 or 240/120 volt service, a live reconnect is NOT a big deal, but it still is dangerous.

Commercial/Industrial, regardless of voltage, generally is dealing with bigger connected load, heavier conductors and much greater fault current, so it should remain something that is done dead. The very size of the service also makes the task take a lot more time, which of course means increased exposure to risk.

And if you're not comfortable with it, NO ONE should force you into doing it. If you are comfortable and desire the training to do it, then you should be permitted to do so. If the laws ever change to allow it, I would train to do live work in an instant. I always want to expand my skills, knowledge and range of services I can provide. That's what freedom of choice is all about.

 

[mivey]

I disagree with the first part of your comment, they have to work live because like it or not, our society is heavily dependent on electricity for many things, including safety (such as traffic controls, hospitals and processes and facilities where loss of power can be dangerous). Even hospitals, despite having comprehensive backup power, suffer severe limitations on the service they can render during a power outage, just ask your local hospital next time you go.

The POCO guarantees power delivery to NOBODY. If there is a situation where the loss of power is dangerous then it needs a backup, traffic lights included.

Critical services in the hospitals do have a power backup as well as a lot of what I would call non-critical stuff. No need for me to go ask as I have many family members that work in them. Ms. Johnson may be inconvenienced for a little bit by a reduction in services in her room, but Mr. Whipple's heart surgery will keep moving right along.

 

[iwire]

Bob, My argument is not that an EC should HAVE to do live work for service reconnects, but simply that if proper training is done and required PPE is used, it should be something this is permitted rather than the "blanket" prohibition that is the current rule.

There is no reason electricians should be risking their safety.

There is nothing heroic or noble in dieing just so someone can have the electricity on quicker.

Let me ask you this: back then, not knowing what you know now, could you or would you have refused to do that work?

You bet I would refuse, and if my boss had a clue he would not have let his brother and I do it.

I would think that now that you are more experienced that you were then you would be MORE inclined to be comfortable/willing to work live with the proper PPE and training.

No, now I realize my life is worth more than other peoples money.

A large apt building was more important than your own life and safety? I'm really confused by your position on that. How long would the outage have been to do that task dead? Most likely shorter than the time it took to do it live I'd bet.

Ah Tony .... it was sarcasm, it was not worth it in the least.

Another thing: as I had mentioned earlier, there are many homes banked onto a secondary lateral in our POCO's jurisdiction so to do an outage for a simple service reconnect would require at least two crews pulling cutouts on multiple transformers and putting a lot of homes/apts in the dark.

So what? If that is what it takes due to poor design practices then that is what it takes.

Finally, the POCO at least here isn't in any rush to add cutouts..they sure didn't after the seagull incident I posted about HERE..

Again the power companies 'problems' do not concern me enough to say I will work live to make things easier for the power company.

So a simple reconnect that I have seen done (and done myself) that takes about 20 minutes would require at least double or even triple that to do.

Again ........ so what?

Like it or not, the POCO's have a mandate to keep the juice on and they do not like to lose revenue if it can be avoided. (I agree that that is NOT a good excuse to expose persons to hazards, but again, and the point that seems to keep getting lost, is that these people are specifically trained to work things hot!)

Not getting your point here.

As for the padmount lug, I did it because I could. It was for me a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

That was stupid and the only reason you did it was to show off.

I have also flown backseat in an F-4 Phantom 300 feet above the ground doing 600 mph, placing my life solely in the hands of the pilot. Why? Because I could, it was a ride I earned during my time in the service. And another once in a lifetime opportunity.

So you're basic reason for working hot is you are an adrenalin junkie, not a good reason to advocate others working hot. I think you have finally made clear why you have this wish to work live.

Again Bob I have the highest respect for you, but I cannot fathom nor agree with your position on this topic,

You cannot fathom why I do not advocate working hot.

I can live with that.

I disagree with the first part of your comment, they have to work live because like it or not, our society is heavily dependent on electricity for many things, including safety (such as traffic controls, hospitals and processes and facilities where loss of power can be dangerous). Even hospitals, despite having comprehensive backup power, suffer severe limitations on the service they can render during a power outage, just ask your local hospital next time you go.

No, all utility feeds can go dead at anytime, if there are loads that need to stay live they need more than a utility feed.

I fully agree that the money they make is not enough to cover the value of a life. But I can tell you that the military falls under that same situation.

I am not in the military, I am a civilian electrician and the laws protect me from working live. I support those laws.

Bottom line:

For RESIDENTIAL, 208/120 or 240/120 volt service, a live reconnect is NOT a big deal, but it still is dangerous.

No, the bottom line is that work can kill workers and there is no reson for that risk.

Commercial/Industrial, regardless of voltage, generally is dealing with bigger connected load, heavier conductors and much greater fault current, so it should remain something that is done dead. The very size of the service also makes the task take a lot more time, which of course means increased exposure to risk.

That makes no sense, I see 200 amp 240 volt commercial services and 1200 residential services.

And if you're not comfortable with it, NO ONE should force you into doing it. If you are comfortable and desire the training to do it, then you should be permitted to do so. If the laws ever change to allow it, I would train to do live work in an instant. I always want to expand my skills, knowledge and range of services I can provide. That's what freedom of choice is all about.

I am sorry you have such little value for your own life.

 

[busman]

Maybe a different twist. Is plugging in a cord "hot work"?

Before you start laughing, the only thing separating you from 120V is the rubber insulation on the cord. Hmmm, the same thing protecting you if you wear gloves and sleeves connecting a service. Why are we so comfortable if the insulation is on the conductor and so uncomfortable if it's on our body? Ever deliberately touch a live conductor with your hot-gloves on? Did it creep-you-out? It still does for me. Having worked a bunch of stuff live and bare-handed, you develop an instinct to not touch bad things.

Are there exposed live parts? Yep, the half inch of the plug as it goes into the receptacle is exposed and hot.

Is there a possibility of arc flash? Sure - if the appliance has a fault, it'll arc right there at the plug.

In the "Share your arc-flash stories" thread, we've already heard about some arcs that happened on branch circuits with plugs.

FWIW, of all the dangerous things in the electrical trade, making up a service on a fiberglass ladder, wearing rubber gloves and sleeves and FR clothing doesn't rank at the top of my fear-factor list.

Mark

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Maybe a different twist. Is plugging in a cord "hot work"?

Before you start laughing, the only thing separating you from 120V is the rubber insulation on the cord. Hmmm, the same thing protecting you if you wear gloves and sleeves connecting a service. Why are we so comfortable if the insulation is on the conductor and so uncomfortable if it's on our body? Ever deliberately touch a live conductor with your hot-gloves on? Did it creep-you-out? It still does for me. Having worked a bunch of stuff live and bare-handed, you develop an instinct to not touch bad things.

Are there exposed live parts? Yep, the half inch of the plug as it goes into the receptacle is exposed and hot.

Is there a possibility of arc flash? Sure - if the appliance has a fault, it'll arc right there at the plug.

In the "Share your arc-flash stories" thread, we've already heard about some arcs that happened on branch circuits with plugs.

FWIW, of all the dangerous things in the electrical trade, making up a service on a fiberglass ladder, wearing rubber gloves and sleeves and FR clothing doesn't rank at the top of my fear-factor list.

Mark

The difference is the amount of energy that can drive the arc flash. You may have thousands of amps of available fault current at the service drop and maybe a 100 at the receptacle...assuming that it is not right at the panel.

 

[busman]

The difference is the amount of energy that can drive the arc flash. You may have thousands of amps of available fault current at the service drop and maybe a 100 at the receptacle...assuming that it is not right at the panel.

That was my point. Should we be in AF gear to plug in a 50A welder 20 feet from the service in an industrial building.

 

[busman]

That is true. And extrapolating that point: there is no reason the linemen "have" to work live other than money.

Actually, for most of the PoCo work, there is no "magic switch" that disconnects power. I agree that pulling a cutout with a hot-stick has little risk and probably shouldn't be considered hot-work. On the other hand, for underground distribution, the only way to disconnect is to pull the load-break elbow with a shotgun stick or un-bolt the secondaries. Either is a risky operation.

Mark

 

[hardworkingstiff]

FWIW, of all the dangerous things in the electrical trade, making up a service on a fiberglass ladder, wearing rubber gloves and sleeves and FR clothing doesn't rank at the top of my fear-factor list.

Mark

If you ever had an accident it might. I believe Bob (Iwire) has made very valid points about safety and I share his view that we should not work it hot. As long as some are willing to do it, change will come slowly.

 

[busman]

If you ever had an accident it might. I believe Bob (Iwire) has made very valid points about safety and I share his view that we should not work it hot. As long as some are willing to do it, change will come slowly.

Actually (and I've shared my stupidity before) I have had an arc-flash accident (meter can exploded) and was saved from serious injury by a fraction of a second (and the grace of God).

 

[KP2]

After following this thread I have a different view on this topic then I did a few weeks ago.

Every time I have done a live cut and tap I would call my wife and give her a heads up that I was about to reconnect and if I didn't call in about a half hour she should call me and if I didn't answer call 911 and send them to the job.

I usaully worked alone in the first few years of being in buisness. Then when I hired a helper I would explain to him to pull the ladder out if I get hung up and can't let go.

The old saying I was told when taught in school how to live cut and tap was "It's unfused so you FRY till you DIE." No go up and becarful.

I never thought it was dangerous when I did the work but reflecting back on what I my back up plan's; wait a half hour and check in, or let me fall 15 to 2? feet.

Not a very good safety plan is it??:-?

 

[mxslick]

Maybe a different twist. Is plugging in a cord "hot work"?

Before you start laughing, the only thing separating you from 120V is the rubber insulation on the cord. Hmmm, the same thing protecting you if you wear gloves and sleeves connecting a service. Why are we so comfortable if the insulation is on the conductor and so uncomfortable if it's on our body? Ever deliberately touch a live conductor with your hot-gloves on? Did it creep-you-out? It still does for me. Having worked a bunch of stuff live and bare-handed, you develop an instinct to not touch bad things.

Are there exposed live parts? Yep, the half inch of the plug as it goes into the receptacle is exposed and hot.

Is there a possibility of arc flash? Sure - if the appliance has a fault, it'll arc right there at the plug.

In the "Share your arc-flash stories" thread, we've already heard about some arcs that happened on branch circuits with plugs.

FWIW, of all the dangerous things in the electrical trade, making up a service on a fiberglass ladder, wearing rubber gloves and sleeves and FR clothing doesn't rank at the top of my fear-factor list.

Mark

Thank you Mark, that is how I feel about this too.

ALL of life is full of risk..and simply working in the electrical trade we knowingly expose ourselves to risks that other trades or the average Joe doesn't. To expand on that , ALL trades have risks..roofers can fall, ironworkers can get crushed by heavy steel (or fall), name ANY trade and there are risks.

Life without risk is not life, it is sitting around like a lump. If someone is so unwilling to take risks, they should just stay home in bed 24/7.

Having almost lost my life twice due to factors outside of my control, I look upon the other risks of life as small potatoes compared to what I have already been through, as I am still at risk of sudden death from my clot condition. I still ride motocross despite the risks, as the cardiac and muscular benefits as well as the stress relief it provides far outweighs the risks of injury or death.

I will continue to seek more training, expand the scope of my work and assess the risks on a case-by-case basis and not place blanket restrictions on what I am willing to learn to do in a safe as possible manner. As I alluded to in one of my earlier posts, I would not have any qualms about working for a POCO line crew, I would be quite comfortable working live with the proper PPE and training. But as I also said I recognize that my fear of heights would be a serious liability for that job and it is the ONLY reason I have not pursued a career as a lineman.

The difference is the amount of energy that can drive the arc flash. You may have thousands of amps of available fault current at the service drop and maybe a 100 at the receptacle...assuming that it is not right at the panel.

Very true and 100% spot on. That is why there are PPE requirements that need to be followed! And that those who undertake the tasks be properly trained.

That was my point. Should we be in AF gear to plug in a 50A welder 20 feet from the service in an industrial building.

If we were to follow the current rules to the letter, yes we should. Do you see that happening in real life? Who would be responsible for enforcing it? What should the penalties be?

Again, someone properly trained in the hazards involved will be fully aware of the risks and they should have the right to perform the task without the draconian restrictions that exist now.

I seriously doubt that if the current laws were changed, to allow properly trained and equipped persons to do the live work, that we are going to see the carnage that some think will happen.

Even under the current laws, there will always be accidents when people are following the rules and there will be accidents caused by people breaking the law, right?

Frankly this is the Kobayashi Maru of the electrical industry. There is no 100 % correct solution, it is a test of character. (For those who don't know it is from Star Trek II, and refers to a supposedly unwinnable battle simulation.)

But it does make for lively discussions. :grin:

 

[LarryFine]

Frankly this is the Kobayashi Maru of the electrical industry. (For those who don't know it is from Star Trek II, and refers to a supposedly unwinnable battle simulation.)

I don't believe in the no-win scenario.


I did live work today. I had to replace a hard-wired 24v transformer with a plug-in one, so I had to disconnect the transformer wires and install a receptacle on a 4" raised cover.

I mounted the receptacle to the cover first, and then I held the cover with my Kleins while I tightened the screws. No sparks.

 

[fondini]

so, getting back to the original question,how did it go?:grin:

 

[flashlight]

... On the other hand, for underground distribution, the only way to disconnect is to pull the load-break elbow with a shotgun stick or un-bolt the secondaries. Either is a risky operation.
Mark

I have always wondered why underground systems weren't designed for
simpler cut-offs-- suppose it's a question of $$$ as always.

 

[iwire]

so, getting back to the original question,how did it go?:grin:

:grin:



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