Please help with Arc Fault problem

[GBBOLT]

I have just finished wiring up 10 condos and while hot checking I have found that when I first test a device with my arc fault tester the device will trip like it is suppose to, but after I go and reset the arc fault breaker and try to trip the same device, my tester shows a flashing light and will not trip the same circuit that I tripped the first time. What is weird is that if I let that circuit sit for a minute or two after reseting the breaker and then put my tester on it it will usually trip that way. Bottom line is that I can not continuously trip the circuit, reset, trip the circuit, reset, and so on. It seems like you have to give the breaker a little time to reset itself after you trip it the first time before it will let you test it (trip it) again. Is this common. Every condo is the same way, once I trip it the first time it gives me trouble each time there after! HELP!!!!!!!!!!:-?

 

[augie47]

Welcome to the Forum.
I have experienced the same problem. There may be some new arc-fault testers on the market but from earlier threads on the Forum, it seems all of the ones then available had a disclaimer as a "tester" with instructions that the only "true" test was the breaker "test" button.
My tester, an Ideal 61-056, is basically useless on a house fed temporarily from a generator or temporary service pole.

You may want to review this earlier thread which also discusses the problem.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=117812&highlight=fault+tester

 

[GBBOLT]

is my tester not right then?

is my tester not right then?

o.k., i am using a ideal 61-059. do you think that it may be the problem. i went and bought a new one, but the same kind. stupid me!

 

[electricmanscott]

Press the button on the breaker, if it trips, reset it and move on. If you pass a dumpster, toss your tester in.

 

[ELA]

It may not be the breaker.
It may be that your tester requires a certain time period between tests.
This may be because it has to dissipate a large amount of power for each test and requires a cool down period between tests?
Check your manual and see if it states a cool down time as a requirement.

 

[e57]

Dumpster....

 

[augie47]

Note Note 7 with your "tester" instruction sheet:

"7. Caution: AFCI devices recognize characteristics unique to arcing, and AFCI
testers produce characteristics that mimic some forms of arcing. Because of
this, the tester may give a false indication that the AFCI is not functioning properly,
when the problem is within the circuit. If this occurs, recheck the operation
of the AFCI using the test and reset buttons. If the AFCI device’s test function
demonstrates proper operation, consult with an electrician to check the condition​

of the circuit." (underlining mine)

I'm sure Ideal appreciates both your and my donations

 

[cowboyjwc]

I'm with the button on the breaker group.

 

[iwire]

Press the button on the breaker, if it trips, reset it and move on.

I agree, that is why they put a test button on it.

If you pass a dumpster, toss your tester in.

I agree again and will add that according to UL that device is not a AFCI tester it is an AFCI indicator and as Gus posted it really means nothing.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

I agree with using the test button, and I'll bet money that your tester needs to cool between test. Have you ever plugged it into a circuit that is not arc faulted, and pushed test? ,,,,,,The tester makes one heck of a complaining noise and it gets hot. Continuous testing is the same thing

 

[ELA]

This is from the Ideal manual:

"Note:
After conducting repetitive AFCI tests, the top LED will blink red and blue
lights. This is a normal indication that the internal thermal protection is
allowing the unit to cool (typically less than a minute) in order to assure
long-life of the AFCI circuitry."


I am a proponent of the need for an external AFCI tester. Here is another paragraph from the manual:

"b. If the breaker doesn’t trip, then the branch circuit may have excessive line impedance (i.e. voltage drop) from undersized wiring, loose wire connections and/or faulty wiring devices. The SureTest? model 61-165 can be used to further identify the source of high impedance on the branch circuit."


One of the reasons that the tester/indicator may have issues tripping the AFCI is as they state above. Too much line impedance. If the line truly has too much impedance this is something that should be investigated and corrected.

To say that these devices are worthless is a bit short sighted.
They have their limitations as all test equipment does. They do have some value when utilized within their limitations. (Understood that they cannot be used to deem an AFCI breaker as defective)

It is easy way out to say that the test button is the only true test - but the button does not test the circuit that the AFCI is intended to protect.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

A cool down time makes sense as the original (non-combo) AFCIs required a current of at least 75 amps before the AFCI even looked at the "arc signature".

 

[iwire]

To say that these devices are worthless is a bit short sighted.

At this point in time the ones on the market are practically worthless and cause many more issues than they solve because few that own them have a clue to the units limitations.

IMO to be a proponent of the currently available AFCI indicators just because you personally desire an external tester is not well thought out.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

A long branch circuit run from a service that is supplied by a weak system might not be able to source 75 amps, so neither the AFCI tester or the AFCI itself will be functional.

 

[GBBOLT]

Final today

Final today

I appreciate everyones input. i'll let my guys know what i have learned. they will think i am a smart guy. my final is today and my inspector has already turned it down 2 times for the arc fault problem. he must have the same tester as me! i figured out that if you turn the main off to the condo,then back on, that every arc fault circuit will trip when tested the first time i try it, so i just turned all the mains off and on and left it for the inspector! please let it pass!!!!!

 

[GBBOLT]

thanks ela

thanks ela

thank you ELA, your answer is the one i was looking for. the red and blue flashing lights are what is happening and i knew that it seemed like it needed to cool down each time after repeated use. i really believe that is what happened!

 

[electricmanscott]

I appreciate everyones input. i'll let my guys know what i have learned. they will think i am a smart guy. my final is today and my inspector has already turned it down 2 times for the arc fault problem. he must have the same tester as me! i figured out that if you turn the main off to the condo,then back on, that every arc fault circuit will trip when tested the first time i try it, so i just turned all the mains off and on and left it for the inspector! please let it pass!!!!!

I hope you are not paying for re-inspections.

The inspector is WAY out of line.

The test button on the AFCI breaker is the mechanism in which to test the operation of the AFCI breaker. That is it tell him to leave his "tester" in the truck.

Do not let him screw you around anymore.

 

[GBBOLT]

i'll be there today!

i'll be there today!

no, i'm not paying. the bad part about it is the inspector is one of my good buddies, he just got this job and he tries to out smart me all the time. i'll be waiting and ready for him today. i'll let ya'll know what happens. i've been doing commercial for the last 14 years and just got back into residential to keep my guys busy. i know, that sounds funny that i have to pick up residential projects now just to stay busy, but we found a guy that is still building houses and i'm sticking with him, now i just need to catch back up on these residential codes. the arc faults are the only thing new to me, but i think you guys solved my problems with them.Thank You Everyone!

 

[ELA]

At this point in time the ones on the market are practically worthless and cause many more issues than they solve because few that own them have a clue to the units limitations.

IMO to be a proponent of the currently available AFCI indicators just because you personally desire an external tester is not well thought out.

Read what I actually said and try to formulate an more intelligent response please.

Actually never mind.

 

[electricmanscott]

Read what I actually said and try to formulate an more intelligent response please.

Actually never mind.

I won't answer for Bob, but I will agree with him.