magnetic field

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hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
Is the magnetic field around a cable canceled when feeding a single-phase transformer with 2 phases of a wye distribution? I would think that it is since it's the current that is developing the field, but a ground conductor is installed with it and I don't know if there would be anything funny going on with the ground reference not being a center-tapped connection on the supply side (as in a single-phase service).
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
I will agree, sort of, almost, for most practical purposes anyway. But to be precise, the magnetic field is never completely ?cancelled,? not even in a perfectly balanced three phase run, nor in a perfectly balanced single phase run from a single phase transformer.

We generally treat such fields (i.e., as viewed outside the conduit) as being non-existent, although "negligible" might be a better term. Let?s consider your single phase run. Current flowing outwards on one wire will create a field around itself, and current returning on the other wire will create a field of opposite orientation. Since the currents are equal, the fields should be equal and opposite, and thus cancel each other. But the locations of the two wires are not identical; they are separated in space by a distance at least as much as the thickness of their insulation systems. A person viewing the wires from outside the conduit will be one distance from one wire, and a slightly, ever so slightly different distance from the other wire.

Who cares about such small differences, you ask? A recent client of mine, I reply. I just finished a project (it is being built at the moment) in which there will be lab instruments that are highly sensitive to stray magnetic fields. It was necessary to account for the small differential magnetic fields caused by currents flowing in the conduits that fed branch panels from distribution panels. It was a first time for me to have to deal with fields so small, but it was important for this particular type of lab.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
As long as the current on one conductor equals that on the other, it does not matter whether either one, or a third conductor, is grounded. The net result will be 'negligible'.
 

richxtlc

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
charlie b;1187287[FONT=Times New Roman said:
Who cares about such small differences, you ask? A recent client of mine, I reply. I just finished a project (it is being built at the moment) in which there will be lab instruments that are highly sensitive to stray magnetic fields. It was necessary to account for the small differential magnetic fields caused by currents flowing in the conduits that fed branch panels from distribution panels. It was a first time for me to have to deal with fields so small, but it was important for this particular type of lab.[/FONT]

What did you do to eliminate the effects of the earth's magnetic field so as not to affect the sensitive instruments? We had to build a special room with a special metal (I don't remember the name of it) that diverted any magnetic fields that tried to enter the room.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
A person viewing the wires from outside the conduit will be one distance from one wire, and a slightly, ever so slightly different distance from the other wire.
Which is why twisted-pair wiring works. The twisting makes sure any induced noise is picked up (or emitted) equally by both conductors. The tighter the twisting, the higher the frequency (due to shorter wavelength) will so be equally picked up by both.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Which is why twisted-pair wiring works. The twisting makes sure any induced noise is picked up (or emitted) equally by both conductors. The tighter the twisting, the higher the frequency (due to shorter wavelength) will so be equally picked up by both.
What has twists per unit length got to do with frequency?
 

charlie b

Moderator
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Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
What did you do to eliminate the effects of the earth's magnetic field so as not to affect the sensitive instruments?
I believe that the instruments will be calibrated in such a way as to disregard the inherent field from the planet. It is a static (similar to DC) field, and is (or so I understand) easy to work around. I do recall that there was some discussion of the client's ability to use rider mowers to cut the grass located above the lab. Apparently, large metal objects can disrupt the earth's local magnetic field enough to throw off the instrumentation. So the maintence schedule will have to be coordinated with the lab experimentation schedules.

 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
I wonder what sort of errors will be caused by 'stray voltage' currents in the soil around the lab. If someone has a ground fault will the unbalanced currents on the grounding electrodes destroy experiments?

With regard to the original question: two 'hots' plus and EGC from a wye system will have balanced _current_ in the same way as two hots plus an EGC fom a center tapped single phase system. As has been described most but not all of the magnetic field will be canceled in the same way for both systems.

However the net _voltage_ will be different. With the single phase system the average voltage of all the conductors relative to ground will be zero, and there will be little electric field around the set of conductors. With the two hots from the three phase system, the average voltage of all the conductors relative to ground will be elevated and there will be an electric field around the set of conductors.

In virtually all cases this makes no practical difference, but it is a measurable difference between the two systems.

-Jon
 

mull982

Senior Member
Will the two legs in the OP indeed cancel since they are 120 deg apart? Or does it not matter since the currents are traveling in different directions on each leg and will therefore cancel?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
What has twists per unit length got to do with frequency?
This is actually more applicable for audio and data, not so much for 60Hz, but since you asked, this applies mostly to UTP (Unshielded Twisted Pair) cabling, such as balanced audio, CAT5 cabling, etc. . .

Twisted-pair wiring is most effective when the input of the destination equipment uses what's called a differential amplifier, which is capable of ignoring common-mode (similar in both conductors) noise.

It ignores any signal that both conductors have in common (i.e., in polarity or (dare I say it?) in phase), and amplifies (or merely passes) any signal that is different in phase or polarity between conductors.

This is called 'common-mode noise rejection'. All wiring picks up induced noise. What matters is how high in frequency the noise can be and the desired signal can still be separated from the garbage.

The greater the twist rate, the shorter the wavelength that we can assure both conductors pick up equally. That results in a higher frequency the desired signal can be and still be 'heard' over the noise.

So, the twist rate is really about making sure both conductors receive the undesired noise similarly. Also, each pair in UTP cables are twisted at a slightly different rate to minimize cross-talk between pairs.
 
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LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Will the two legs in the OP indeed cancel since they are 120 deg apart? Or does it not matter since the currents are traveling in different directions on each leg and will therefore cancel?
The two legs are 180 deg, not 120, when you only have two conductors. The voltage is 208 instead of 240 because of the timing.

And, it doesn't matter as long as the net total of all currents in the cable/conduit/bundle equal "add" up to zero.
 

ohmhead

Senior Member
Location
ORLANDO FLA
Well twisting wires does help with magnetic fields or should i say emf issues .

a ac conductor with current flow has eddy currents internal which are circulating inside by twisting these conductors you have more surface area to cancel each others field by more surface contact .

If they where just layed parallel with air gaps and uneven placement your not completely doing any good .

If you look old litz wire by example it was used for high freq but would help to me at even low 60 cycle each strand twisted and twisting all the phases ABC for a better cable by twisting your 3 phase conductors which you can order twisted conductors from wire suppliers . Its more cost but if you want to get less emf do it .

Use lead walls that will fix the lawn mower problem.
 
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mull982

Senior Member
The two legs are 180 deg, not 120, when you only have two conductors. The voltage is 208 instead of 240 because of the timing.

And, it doesn't matter as long as the net total of all currents in the cable/conduit/bundle equal "add" up to zero.

If these two legs are on the secondary of a 3 phase source then aren't the phases 120deg apart? How are you saying that they are 180deg apart?

I see what you are saying about the net total current. Because they are in opposite direction the phase angle doesn't matter becuase no matter what it is they will be opposite of each other and cancel.
 

benaround

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
An Electrician told me he had to twist all the feeders in a military installation, I asked him

what was the reason, he said it was in the spec. , I think I finally know why now!
 

ohmhead

Senior Member
Location
ORLANDO FLA
An Electrician told me he had to twist all the feeders in a military installation, I asked him

what was the reason, he said it was in the spec. , I think I finally know why now!



Funny but in the navy there where mostly cables run for power and all the cables were twisted we had high & low 3 phase power single phase power and 60 cycle and 400 cycle at different voltages but all manufactured with a twist !
 

mpross

Senior Member
Location
midwest
magnetic fields

magnetic fields

used Hemholtz coils once to calculate the mass of an electron. this was in a physics class... if I remember we had to adjust the angle in which the coils were oriented due to earth's magnetic field. one of the coolest things ever!
 

ELA

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Test Engineer
The two legs are 180 deg, not 120, when you only have two conductors. The voltage is 208 instead of 240 because of the timing.

And, it doesn't matter as long as the net total of all currents in the cable/conduit/bundle equal "add" up to zero.

The OP said two phases of a wye? I believe that the voltages would be 120 degree apart. The fact that they are 120 degrees apart (or what you called timing) relative to each other is why you measure 208V rather than 240V - as you said.

The fields still cancel because the input wire to the transformer coil and the output wire form a series circuit and the current is the same in both feed wires. Even though the voltages with respect to neutral are out of phase the currents in the two lines are in phase (in that transformer circuit).


The greater the twist rate, the shorter the wavelength that we can assure both conductors pick up equally. That results in a higher frequency the desired signal can be and still be 'heard' over the noise.

I had not heard that about twisted pairs can you place cite a reference for that?
 
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