210.5(C) if you're on the 2008 NEC.
NEC silent on color code
- Thread starter jusme123
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210.5(C) if you're on the 2008 NEC.
YES
(C) Ungrounded Conductors. Where the premises wiring system has branch circuits supplied from more than one nominal voltage system, each ungrounded conductor of a branch circuit shall be identified by phase or line and system at all termination, connection, and splice points. The means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means. The method utilized for conductors originating within each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch-circuit distribution equipment shall be documented in a manner that is readily available or shall be permanently posted at each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch-circuit distribution equipment.
I missed by phase meaning A, B, C need to have different colors for both systems
You could still run all blacks for your low voltage and all reds for your high voltage, but you'd have to mark them somehow at all terminations, connections, splices etc.
Yes
There is no #6 and smaller rule for ungrounded conductors. Also look at 200.6 (D) if a grounded conductor is present in the system. There is a #6 and smaller rule for grounded conductors 200.6 (A)
roger3829
Senior Member
- Location
- Torrington, CT
Still going on '05 code here....... Looked in '08 and I agree.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
The 05 NEC allowed that. The 08 states to identify by line and phase.
Glenn Anderson
Member
- Location
- Point Pleasant NJ
What do we have here? A DOE Lab has for the past 30 years marked all voltages with black-red-blue for phasing purposes. I say current installations are a violation of 215.12(C). The only external identification other than name plate is a lab wide letter designation ie PLX, P-480v, L-120/208, X-transformer.
As this is a government facility with staff on site, the past thought is 'We know the voltage thru the letter designation". However outside contractors and university electricians are on site with concerns.
I propose if they want to keep the color phasing BRB give me the last three inches at all terminations, splices and accessible junction boxes, use the industry standard BRB-120/208-240 and BOY 277/480. Reasonable?
Thanks for input,
Glenn
We still have industry with high-leg 240 Delta systems. A few also have 480 systems. Since 110.15 requires orange for the 240, in order to comply with 210.5, a rule was adopted limiting orange to 240 delta and 480 systems here are normally brown-purple-yellow.
Apparently this is not the only area that does so as I see Southwire has MC with B-P-Y-Grey.
Apparently this is not the only area that does so as I see Southwire has MC with B-P-Y-Grey.
Glenn Anderson
Member
- Location
- Point Pleasant NJ
Augie,
Good call on the purple (or is it violet? LOL!)
Does anyone have the latest NEIS (NECA)? Is color/voltage covered there?
Glenn
Good call on the purple (or is it violet? LOL!)
Does anyone have the latest NEIS (NECA)? Is color/voltage covered there?
Glenn
A/A Fuel GTX
Senior Member
- Location
- WI & AZ
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- Electrician
I could never understand the logic behind those articles.
Cold Fusion
Senior Member
- Location
- way north
One could always use a label on each termination. This has been an industry standard for 30+ years (at least for some industries) Then it doesn't matter what color you use (for phases). And the 2008 NEC required panel label says, "Look at the tags on the terminations".
That way, you know the phase, circuit, panel. Works well.
As for the contractors coming in, I'm certain you are giving them an orientation before turning them loose unescorted. They have to know about site specific LOTO procedures, work permits, safety plans. Maybe you would want to include power conductor coding.
cf
That way, you know the phase, circuit, panel. Works well.
As for the contractors coming in, I'm certain you are giving them an orientation before turning them loose unescorted. They have to know about site specific LOTO procedures, work permits, safety plans. Maybe you would want to include power conductor coding.
cf
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Yes it's a design issue.
Just because something is not required by the NEC doesn't mean it's not a good idea. There is nothing that says that you can't use these colors to identify the phases and numbers to identify the circuits. I does make a nice neat looking job.
I think you could say that in many areas this is pretty much an industry standard, not required but standard practice.
Do people really need a sign on the wall telling them to wash their hands after useing the bathroom or should this just be a standard practice.
The code is a "Minimum standard" and not design manual. If people would just understand this one simple fact that would help a lot.
Glenn Anderson
Member
- Location
- Point Pleasant NJ
All great replies, Thanks!
The fact that at my Lab with all voltages are BRB, thats my concern. Attempting to adopt an industry standard and varying from a 30 year mindset is my biggest challenge. A large addition in the 1960's by an outside contractor has all the industry colors from 2000 amp MCC's to 277 lighting. Where the change came from, no one knows. I shall endeavor to pursue!
I always have prejob briefing with outside folk for the above reason.
Glenn
PS, I have my fusion hot, thank you! LOL!
The fact that at my Lab with all voltages are BRB, thats my concern. Attempting to adopt an industry standard and varying from a 30 year mindset is my biggest challenge. A large addition in the 1960's by an outside contractor has all the industry colors from 2000 amp MCC's to 277 lighting. Where the change came from, no one knows. I shall endeavor to pursue!
I always have prejob briefing with outside folk for the above reason.
Glenn
PS, I have my fusion hot, thank you! LOL!
ericsherman37
Senior Member
- Location
- Oregon Coast
I try to be in the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" school of thought. I learned the trade standard color-coding within the first few weeks of my first term of apprenticeship, and it's stuck ever since. Same with every other electrician I've worked with. We all know the color coding, and it's been convention for so long that there's probably no real problems being caused by it, so there's probably no real benefit to "officializing" it in the code. Same reason why equipment grounding conductors are still called equipment grounding conductors.
Yet 'officially', gray can be an ungrounded or a grounded.
Only in installations prior to the 02 cycle.
Roger
To clarify, up through the 1999, gray was officially an ungrounded color. In 2002, gray officially became a grounded color.
Volta
Senior Member
- Location
- Columbus, Ohio
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