Service Disconnects

[SparksRFlyin]

I have a question about where in the code does it tell you to have a disconnecting means prior to the main panel for long residential service runs?

I have been told that the only time you need a disconnecting means before the panel is if the SE cable is more than 5 feet between the interior panel and the meter not the distance between the taps and the meter.

The question refers to a job that has about 50 feet of SE cable that runs between the taps and the meter.

Thanks Fellas

 

[pete m.]

230.70

There is no minimum or maximum distance specified in the NEC for length of service entrance conductor inside of a building or structure. See 230.70(A)(1)

Pete

 

[raider1]

I agree with Pete,

There is no NEC specified length that service entrance conductors are permitted to run into a building. There are many jurisdictions that have either a policy or written local codes that do permit specific lengths.

Chris

 

[tom baker]

This is more likely addressed by state codes.

 

[SparksRFlyin]

Thanks guys.

I read the same code section as you had mentioned Article 230 and I read 230.70(A)(1). It just says to mount nearest point of entrance and nothing about if that could not be done.

I'll check with the inspector.

Thanks

 

[augie47]

There is almost no "can't be done" in this situation. At some point the service reaches the building allowing a disconnecting means.
You may not be able to or wish to mount your distribution panel there and there is nothing to prohibit you from placing the panel any particular distance away, but, a service disconnect means meeting 230.70 is required, and from that point your wiring to your interior panel will be a feeder or any length.

 

[charlie b]

The question refers to a job that has about 50 feet of SE cable that runs between the taps and the meter.

If I understand the situation correctly, I would say that this cable falls under the jurisdiction of the utility, and that the NEC is not a player.

I have been told that the only time you need a disconnecting means before the panel is if the SE cable is more than 5 feet between the interior panel and the meter. . . .

The relevant requirements are that there be a disconnecting means, and that it be either outside the building or inside "nearest the point of entrance." Washington state puts a 15 foot limit on the word "nearest." I have read on this forum that other states set the limit at 5 feet. But I don't think it would apply to your situation.

 

[SparksRFlyin]

I have seen other services requiring a disconnecting means in my area (PA) if the panel is not on the other side of the wall or close to the meter.

I just wasn't sure if the NEC had a requirement that I just overlooked.

Thanks for the input

 

[cowboyjwc]

As Chris said there is not required length, but many jurisdictions have it in their ordinances. Ours says "at the point of entrance...."

 

[alex_713]

Tangent

Tangent

As Chris said there is not required length, but many jurisdictions have it in their ordinances. Ours says "at the point of entrance...."

So, would a point 18 or 32 inches away from the exterior wall on a perpendicular interior wall be "at the point of entrance"?

I got red-tagged yesterday for that: (1) 320A MB outside w/ (2) 2" RMC ran inside to (2) 200A MCB panels that weren't on the exterior wall because the exterior wall didn't have great access for the branch circuits. The inspector said "it wasn't readily accessible" because it wasn't on the exterior wall where the rigid nipples come in.

Do I have a leg to stand on here?

 

[raider1]

So, would a point 18 or 32 inches away from the exterior wall on a perpendicular interior wall be "at the point of entrance"?

I got red-tagged yesterday for that: (1) 320A MB outside w/ (2) 2" RMC ran inside to (2) 200A MCB panels that weren't on the exterior wall because the exterior wall didn't have great access for the branch circuits. The inspector said "it wasn't readily accessible" because it wasn't on the exterior wall where the rigid nipples come in.

Do I have a leg to stand on here?

What code section did the inspector cite?

Being on the exterior wall has nothing to do with being "readilly accessible" but more with nearest the point of entrance.

So question, where is your service disconnecting means?

You said "(1) 320A MB outside". There is no 320 amp Main Breaker that I am aware of.

Chris

 

[cowboyjwc]

So, would a point 18 or 32 inches away from the exterior wall on a perpendicular interior wall be "at the point of entrance"?

I got red-tagged yesterday for that: (1) 320A MB outside w/ (2) 2" RMC ran inside to (2) 200A MCB panels that weren't on the exterior wall because the exterior wall didn't have great access for the branch circuits. The inspector said "it wasn't readily accessible" because it wasn't on the exterior wall where the rigid nipples come in.

Do I have a leg to stand on here?

Here would be no. I would have to have a meter/main. Here to the FD doesn't want to have to go into a burning building to shut off the power. But, and this is a big but, here you will only see exterior, all-in-one panels.

 

[e57]

So, would a point 18 or 32 inches away from the exterior wall on a perpendicular interior wall be "at the point of entrance"?

I got red-tagged yesterday for that: (1) 320A MB outside w/ (2) 2" RMC ran inside to (2) 200A MCB panels that weren't on the exterior wall because the exterior wall didn't have great access for the branch circuits. The inspector said "it wasn't readily accessible" because it wasn't on the exterior wall where the rigid nipples come in.

Do I have a leg to stand on here?

'Readily Accessible means different things to different people - especially if in some local code it is followed by 'on the exterior of the structure' or something like that - but it is not written that way in the NEC. Where I live in SF I can put a meter outside (or even inside), then have the main someplace deep inside - but the silly ticky tacky town just to the south - requires all main disconnects to be outside...

Example:

Service Disconnect Location (15.24.040). The main disconnect and meter shall be readily accessible on the exterior of the building. An exception may be granted for apartment and commercial buildings when unusual circumstances are encountered. A written request is required.

 

[alex_713]

Most houses in the area have 200A services with a 200A MCB panel on the interior wall close nippled into the back of the meter. On this particular house, the 34kw of electric heat ended up forcing me into a 400A service. The particular Milbank U1797 320A meter I put up comes with double-lugs on the load side for feeding (unfused) (2) 200A loads. Usually, I'd go out either side of the meter to fused disconnects on either side. This time, because of the arrangement of the house, etc., put (2) 200A MCB panels side-by-side inside on a wall that was perpendicular to the exterior wall the meter is on. The closest panel has an 18" rigid conduit run into the back of the meter out of a side KO. The panel next to it has a LB out of the bottom KO then rigid nipple (just underneath the first conduit) to the meter. I am aware of the dangers involved in running unfused conductors into houses, hence the use of the RMC. I was just wondering if this type of set up is commonly frowned upon.

 

[e57]

I was just wondering if this type of set up is commonly frowned upon.

No.... It solely depends on the neurosis of the beholder. Or AHJ... Sure certain entities want to shut of power from outside, or have it enclosed in such a way that presents little as possible hazard - but IMO your install would be perfectly acceptable in all but one city - who have inspectors who couldn't inpect their way out of a paper sack and would jump all over it because it is on the little check list - but pass all kinds unorthodox wiring or even require blatent fire hazards.

The example I mentioned above - this is right after that one in complete contradiction...

Meter Enclosure (15.24.040). Electric service meters and related equipment shall be screened from public view by enclosure or other approved method.

How is that handled? You build a little 'dog-house' for the meter and main - in essense - putting it INSIDE.... Right? - but if you have a hole in the wall to reach in - thats OK for them.....

 

[alex_713]

No.... It solely depends on the neurosis of the beholder. Or AHJ...

I agree 100%. Honestly, I believe it would present a greater hazard to arrange it how they want it (on the exterior wall) due to the fact that there would be more conductors in harms way putting both panels on the exterior wall and cramming them down the 6" wide space I had in the top plate of that exterior wall where the large joists spanning the garage are resting.

Do you think there is any chance I could coerce the AHJ into seeing things my way without opening a can of worms and making things really difficult for everyone involved?

 

[ceb58]

So, would a point 18 or 32 inches away from the exterior wall on a perpendicular interior wall be "at the point of entrance"?

I got red-tagged yesterday for that: (1) 320A MB outside w/ (2) 2" RMC ran inside to (2) 200A MCB panels that weren't on the exterior wall because the exterior wall didn't have great access for the branch circuits. The inspector said "it wasn't readily accessible" because it wasn't on the exterior wall where the rigid nipples come in.

Do I have a leg to stand on here?

What code cycle are you on?
What type and size wire did you run from the base to the panels?
Did you run it all in conduit or is the nipple just stubbed in?

 

[e57]

Do you think there is any chance I could coerce the AHJ into seeing things my way without opening a can of worms and making things really difficult for everyone involved?

Do you have a copy of the local code he is citing? Ask him/her for one - plead ignorance to the fact they have superceded the NEC, and possibly State codes if any - request variance if allowed... Beg - Bribe (Kidding)...

Or start over... From the sound of it - taking down the service meter, and replacing that with a NEMA 3 J-box or gutter, and relaocating meter to accomadate such - with a disconnect, or set of disconnects (Check and see if these freaks only want one for whatever wacky reason) on the exterior.... Leaving the interior panels as is...*

*Where is the bonding for said service?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

In the absence of state or local codes saying otherwise, I read the term "nearest the point of entrance" as meaning exactly that. The raceway or cable enters through the exterior wall or floor and the service disconnect is to be installed at that point. Our local code has wording that permits 10' of service conductor inside the building.

 

[alex_713]

What code cycle are you on?

The state adopted 2008 at the beginning of the year.

What type and size wire did you run from the base to the panels?

I will run 3/0 CU eventually.

Did you run it all in conduit or is the nipple just stubbed in?

RMC is bonded/connected to both panel(s) and MB