Peninsula Receptacle

[Dennis Alwon]

Ok, in Picture #2, where would you install the receptacle to comply with 210.52 (C) (5) Exception???

Bad design, but I would install it toward the front (where one stands) of the cabinet on the end of the peninsula.

 

[charlie b]

I don’t have a peninsula in my kitchen, but I have cabinets and countertops on both sides. When I stand in the middle, and look at one of the walls, I can move close to the side of the cabinets, place my hands on the countertop, and the countertop will be between my body and the wall. That is the image I maintain of the 210.52(C)(1) “wall countertop spaces.” Specifically, that type of space allows me to stand next to the cabinet, and have the countertop between me and the wall, and I can reach out and touch the wall.

Now look at photo #1 in post #24. If I stand next to the countertop, the other side of the countertop is not a wall, it is open air. But if I put myself in a position with the countertop between my body and the wall, I cannot reach the wall. That is the image I maintain of the 210.52(C)(3) “peninsular countertop spaces.”

What I don’t understand, Dennis, is why you wish to assign the first 24 inches of that “thing” as being “wall countertop space,” and the rest of it as “peninsular countertop space.” To me, it is entirely a peninsula. By contrast, your sketch in post 16 and the image in post 31 show both types of countertop spaces. But nothing requires there to be both, and nothing requires that a countertop must first be treated as a 210.52(C)(1) space before being treated as anything else.

Are you telling us that we need to transfer the first 24 miles of Florida to Georgia, in order to keep Florida a peninsula?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Charlie what I am trying to say that I believe the wording in this article using the words "connecting edge" appears to change the normal concept of what a peninsula is. I agree that a peninsula would normally be all the cabinets to the wall. That is not what others are saying when the peninsula has cabinets that are attached to the wall or adjacent to the peninsula.

Why would an outlet be required in one scenario and not the other. It is the same amount of counter space. Why require an outlet on the peninsula if one on the wall is sufficient. One would never be needed if the peninsula was measured to the wall because their would always be an outlet in the first 24" with or without other cabinets.

I would be curious what the NEC handbook shows. Again why even have this article for peninsula if the one on the counter counts.

What reasons does the CMP have for needed to define it as the connecting edge.

 

[charlie b]

Charlie what I am trying to say that I believe the wording in this article using the words "connecting edge" appears to change the normal concept of what a peninsula is.

The phrase “connecting edge” does not tell us what is connecting to what, nor at what location. In “photo #1,” I interpret that phrase as referring to the line at which the countertop touches the wall. If that is the line of origin of the peninsula, then the receptacle just above that line can serve the peninsula.

Why require an outlet on the peninsula if one on the wall is sufficient. One would never be needed if the peninsula was measured to the wall because there would always be an outlet in the first 24" with or without other cabinets.

No there wouldn’t, not always. In your sketch in post #16, there would have to be a receptacle on the wall space immediately above your red line. Indeed, you show one there. But consider a “T Intersection” type configuration. A long wall with “wall countertop space” all along it, and a peninsula connected in the middle of the room. Now stand at the far edge of the peninsula, look along its countertop surface at the wall behind it. Nothing requires that wall space to contain a receptacle. You could satisfy the 24/48 inch rule by placing on receptacle to the right of the space and one to the left, so long as the two are within 48 inches of each other. In other words, in your sketch, cut the left hand peninsula along the red line, and move the peninsula 24 inches to the right. Keep the one receptacle you presently show in its present location. Put another receptacle on the wall, to the right of the new position of the red line. Thus, you don't have a receptacle above your red line, and you satisfy the 24/48 rule, and you still need a separate receptacle to serve the peninsula.

 

[wwhitney]

Let me put in a vote for Dennis's point of view. To require a peninsular receptacle in picture #2 and not in picture #1 is illogical. Either the receptacle should be required in both cases or in neither case. Since everyone agrees a receptacle is required in picture #2, then it should be required in picture #1.

Think about it this way: suppose you have a peninsula like in picture #1, and then you have a run of base cabinets along the wall that start three feet away. Now move those cabinets closer and closer to the peninsula. When they hit the peninsula, you are in the situation in picture #2, and a peninsular receptacle is required. At what point did it become required? Is it required when the base cabinets are 1" away? 1' away? 3' away?

Or the same idea in a different way: suppose you have an ell shaped configuration with the short leg against the wall extending three feet past the long leg. A peninsular receptacle is required. Now shrink the short leg--when it shrinks to nothing, the majority view is that no receptacle is required. At what point did that happen?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[charlie b]

Since everyone agrees a receptacle is required in picture #2,

I don’t agree with that (i.e., that you need both a receptacle to serve the wall countertop space and a separate receptacle to serve the peninsula countertop space). But let me be clear about that. I don’t agree because photo # 2 is not showing enough of the kitchen. We don’t know what is happening to the right of the photo. We don’t know what happens at the wall. See my next comment for a continuation of this thought.

Or the same idea in a different way: suppose you have an ell shaped configuration with the short leg against the wall extending three feet past the long leg. A peninsular receptacle is required.

A peninsula always requires a receptacle. The question is whether one in the wall counts as the required peninsula receptacle. In your example, you have a peninsula, and you don’t have any other “wall countertop space.” So if you put a receptacle on the wall above the peninsular countertop, I would say it counts as the required peninsula receptacle.

Think about it this way: suppose you have a peninsula like in picture #1, and then you have a run of base cabinets along the wall that start three feet away. Now move those cabinets closer and closer to the peninsula. When they hit the peninsula, you are in the situation in picture #2, and a peninsular receptacle is required. At what point did it become required? Is it required when the base cabinets are 1" away? 1' away? 3' away?

The countertop that is above the base cabinets that are against the wall will require receptacles spaced no more than 48 inches apart, regardless of the location of the peninsula. The peninsula will require a receptacle, regardless of the location of the other cabinets and countertop.

 

[One-eyed Jack]

If you butt the alleged penisula up against the wall does it not become a wall countertop space? It may be a long or deep wall countertop. If you define wall countertop as running along or being attached to the wall.:grin:

 

[wwhitney]

A peninsula always requires a receptacle. The question is whether one in the wall counts as the required peninsula receptacle.

OK, I guess I am a little unclear on your position. Under what conditions do you feel a wall receptacle can serve as the required peninsula receptacle?

Suppose you have an ell shaped configuration with the short leg against the wall extending three feet past the long leg

In your example, you have a peninsula, and you don?t have any other ?wall countertop space.?

I would think that the part of the short leg that is against the wall and extends past the peninsula would be other "wall countertop space".

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

BTW, I think that the intent of 210.52(C)(3) is to define a peninsula as any countertop area that is farther than, say, 30" from the wall. Certainly the section would be a lot clearer if it were worded that way. In fact it could be combined with 210.52(C)(2) which would simplify the code in this area.

And this idea fits in nicely with the point of the 2'/4' rule, that kitchen appliances have 2' cords. So for countertop more than 30" from the wall, you can't probably can't reach the wall receptacles with a 2' cord.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[charlie b]

If you butt the alleged penisula up against the wall does it not become a wall countertop space?

IMHO, it does not. Why should it? Where is the rule, the definition, the FPN, the exception, anything, any words whatsoever, that says, "if a piece of countertop material comes into contact with a wall, then 210.52(C)(1) applies"?

 

[charlie b]

OK, I guess I am a little unclear on your position. Under what conditions do you feel a wall receptacle can serve as the required peninsula receptacle?

Please allow me to rephrase your question, in the hopes of improving clarity.

Under what conditions do you feel a receptacle that is mounted into a wall can serve as the peninsula receptacle required by 210.52(C)(3)?

My answer is when you have a peninsula with a countertop surface that is located against the wall, and you don't have a set of wall cabinets with a countertop surface on either side of the peninsula. Specifically, when you have the situation shown in photo #1 from post 24.

 

[charlie b]

BTW, I think that the intent of 210.52(C)(3) is to define a peninsula as any countertop area that is farther than, say, 30" from the wall.

So you are interpreting ?measured from the connecting edge? as meaning ?measured from the line at which the peninsula countertop contacts the wall countertop.? I interpret as also meaning ?measured from the line at which the peninsula countertop contacts the wall.?

So for countertop more than 30" from the wall, you can't probably can't reach the wall receptacles with a 2' cord.

Not a relevant consideration. You can have an island 20 feet long, and serve it with a single receptacle.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Thats it.......peninsulas should be banned:grin:.......or you could reclassify them as islands that have docked!

 

[wwhitney]

IMHO, it does not. Why should it? Where is the rule, the definition, the FPN, the exception, anything, any words whatsoever, that says, "if a piece of countertop material comes into contact with a wall, then 210.52(C)(1) applies"? :confused

I think the whole reason we are having this discussion is that 210.52(C) doesn't define "wall countertop space" and "peninsula countertop space", and the example in the original post is in the grey area between the two.

If I have a piece of countertop that is 2' by 3', unconnected to any other countertops, and the 3' side is against the wall, then I think everyone would agree this is wall countertop space. Now if I turn it so the 2' side is against the wall, what is it? Is it a short run of deep wall countertop space, or is it a peninsula? If it is a peninsula, is it all peninsula countertop space, or is part of it wall counterop space? Absent proper definitions, this will always be ambiguous.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

So for countertop more than 30" from the wall, you can't probably can't reach the wall receptacles with a 2' cord.

Not a relevant consideration. You can have an island 20 feet long, and serve it with a single receptacle.

Sure only one receptacle is required, but there is still a requirement for peninsulas and islands. And the reason I see for the required receptacles is that ones on the wall aren't close enough, given the 2' kitchen cord length. Otherwise, why require a peninsula receptacle at all? [For the island, it is clear that using a wall receptacle would be a hazard.]

Cheers, Wayne

 

[electricmanscott]

I see both sides of this but in my view it is only a peninsula counter space when it is connected to another counter that runs along the wall.

Otherwise it is just wall counter space if the counter is against the wall for 12 inches or more regardless of how deep it is (protruding from the wall) and a wall receptacle would suffice.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

My whole argument is based on the defining of a peninsula 2 different ways. In one scenario, the peninsula is interpreted as starting at the wall. In the other scenario it is counted as starting where it abuts the wall counter.

You can't just define the peninsula to suit your means. I agree with Wayne-- thank you for the support as I felt like the lone wolf here -- in that if you demand an extra recep. in one scenario then you have to demand an extra one in the other . If you believe the wall recep. is good enough for the stand alone peninsula then it should suffice in the other example. I know from experience one will not suffice in both cases.

Let me make myself clear as mud again, I don't disagree that a peninsula should start at the wall, esp. in the case of the stand alone peninsula. I just don't see how it can be interpreted differently in the two scenarios. That is my objection.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I see both sides of this but in my view it is only a peninsula counter space when it is connected to another counter that runs along the wall.

I don't get it. So are you saying that a 2 foot wide cabinet, that stands alone perpendicular to a wall, is not a peninsula? If you call this a counter space then it would need an outlet within 2 feet of the wall and every 4 feet. :-?

 

[electricmanscott]

Handbook commentary. (I know guys, save your breath :roll: )

The measurement of a peninsular type countertop is from the edge connecting to the non peninsular counter

 

[electricmanscott]

I don't get it. So are you saying that a 2 foot wide cabinet, that stands alone perpendicular to a wall, is not a peninsula? If you call this a counter space then it would need an outlet within 2 feet of the wall and every 4 feet. :-?

Receptacles would be needed along the wall line only.