Peninsula Receptacle

[charlie b]

. . . consider this: A 6' long by 2' deep counter centered against a 12' wall. It too would be open on three sides, so could it be called a penninsula?

Trouble maker! :grin:

 

[mcclary's electrical]

How about another obsevation to throw into the mix.:grin: The code does not define a "what" a penninsula is. If you think of a land penninsula as a "body of land surounded on three sides by water" and apply that logic to a countertop, then you could say a penninsula countertop is a countertop that is open on three sides. Since the code does not say that a penninsula countertop is one who's long dimension is perpendicular to the wall or another counter space then consider this: A 6' long by 2' deep counter centered against a 12' wall. It too would be open on three sides, so could it be called a penninsula? I don't know.

As many have said, this area is gray. I think with the wording in the code as it is, I think some good judgement should be applied.

That would be a countertop. Turn it the othre way, it's a penn. I don't agree that the code is grey because you're asking to PROVE something by code that doesn't need to be proved.

It would be like asking me to use the NEC to prove to you specifically that we cannot use the tail of pink elephants as a fuse. The wording is not there because it does not need to be there. Why would we draw an imaginary line, that nobody can even agree "where" when it's only one seperate item alone. The following are seperate items (barring made up imaginary lines)

1) Wall
2) Counter top
3) penn.

You cannot combine any of those 3.

#1 by itself needs nothing
#2 by itself needs counter top requirements.
#3 by itself needs 1 receptacle

#2 & #3 adjoining would be when the code seperates them (specifically,,,,,not just a made up measurement) where they adjoin,,,,they are still SEPERATE at that point, and when mounted independantly, the requirements for both NEVER NEED TO BE APPLIED ONLY ONE. You can't take two requirements from two different items and "bundle" them and apply them to one seperate item. That defies the way the ENTIRE NEC is written. Again, I can't prove specifically that's because the code assume nobody is making up imaginary lines

 

[LarryFine]

It would be like asking me to use the NEC to prove to you specifically that we cannot use the tail of pink elephants as a fuse.

You can use any color elephant's tail except green or white. :grin:

(Thanx for the kudos.)

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Again, I can't prove specifically that's because the code assume nobody is making up imaginary lines

I am starting to take offense to your comments that appear to be direct toward me. I understand your point but you think there is no other was to see this and you are wrong. You have no idea what the cmp's were thinking on this. My concept may be what they had in mind- I don't know but it surely makes sense to me. I don't knock your thinking on this as I actually see it quite clearly. I agree a stand alone cabinet perpendicular to the wall should be a peninsula. I am just not convinced the CMP's see it that way.

In my eyes it makes logical sense to include a recep. in both scenarios since there is the same amount of counter being covered. Personally I don't care if you don't install one in either case. In fact, it looks like in 2011 we won't need one in either scenario for peninsula's under 6'.

Now where are they measuring it from???? Here we go again.

 

[construct]

Trouble maker! :grin:

I know, but I simply could not resist.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I know, but I simply could not resist.

You shouldn't resist- we need the humor. Your humor actually makes for a good point as to the need for a good definition of peninsula. I have enjoyed the challenge of this article. I will continue to do as I think should be done at least until the code clarifies it.

Honestly- I rarely come across a cabinet that is installed alone and perpendicular to the wall.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

I am starting to take offense to your comments that appear to be direct toward me. I understand your point but you think there is no other was to see this and you are wrong. You have no idea what the cmp's were thinking on this. My concept may be what they had in mind- I don't know but it surely makes sense to me. I don't knock your thinking on this as I actually see it quite clearly. I agree a stand alone cabinet perpendicular to the wall should be a peninsula. I am just not convinced the CMP's see it that way.

In my eyes it makes logical sense to include a recep. in both scenarios since there is the same amount of counter being covered. Personally I don't care if you don't install one in either case. In fact, it looks like in 2011 we won't need one in either scenario for peninsula's under 6'.

Now where are they measuring it from???? Here we go again.

Dennis, Please do not take offense at ANYTHING I say. I apologize if I offended you. I can be 100 % completely honest and truthful with you when I say that ALOT of the things I post on here are purely to keep the conversation "lively". MAny times, I know darn good and well that what I write may offend people, but I write it anyway. Please don't take it personal, it is purely in the enjoyment of this site and it's discussion. I'm a totally well mannored and professional individual, but when we're discussing stuff, I'm not making a business proposal, I'm discussing. Please take everything I tell you with a grain of salt, and besides, the only reason you feel as though I was directing my statements towards you is becasue YOU drew the imaginary line, this started with that line YOU drew, so when I refer to it, it's only natural for your mind to claim it

 

[eprice]

Looks like there are two views for the stand alone peninsula space.
#1 It's just one space so you only need one receptacle.
#2 It's two spaces, a wall space, connected in a straight line with a peninsula space.That peninsula space being the area which extends beyond what a normal counter depth would be.


I vote #2

Actually, I think there are three views in this thread:

#1a It's just one space, that space being a peninsula, so you only need one receptacle.
#1b It's just one space, that space being a wall space, so you only need one receptacle. (This I believe is electricmanscott's position)
#2 It's two spaces, a wall space, connected in a straight line with a peninsula space.That peninsula space being the area which extends beyond what a normal counter depth would be.

Since there is nothing in the NEC that defines the maximum depth of a wall space, and since 210.52(C)(3) states that a peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge, and since there is no connecting edge in the scenario under discussion, I find myself agreeing with electricmanscott (#1b).

 

[LarryFine]

Now where are they measuring it from???? Here we go again.

Why, from "the connecting edge", of course.

 

[LarryFine]

Honestly- I rarely come across a cabinet that is installed alone and perpendicular to the wall.

That means you rarely have to make this decision. That leaves more time to have fun here.

 

[LarryFine]

Since there is nothing in the NEC that defines the maximum depth of a wall space, and since 210.52(C)(3) states that a peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge, and since there is no connecting edge in the scenario under discussion, I find myself agreeing with electricmanscott (#1b).

I say that 1a or b would be adequate. The peninsula needs one receptacle, unless it's effectively divided, which can be in either place.

That there is no connecting line, other than the wall itself, is why there is no need for both a wall receptacle and a peninsula-end one.

 

[jumper]

Hmmm,
It seems like some other fella thinks like Dennis does:


View attachment 4609

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Derek, I think most of the members would agree with that but not with the stand alone peninsula. My point is that they are changing definitions between the two situations. In one case they agree we measure to the base cabinets - 2' out and in the other case they measure to the wall-- that is the issue I have with it. You can't change the rules.

We'll see what others say unless they are burnt out on this. :grin:

 

[jumper]

Derek, I think most of the members would agree with that but not with the stand alone peninsula. My point is that they are changing definitions between the two situations. In one case they agree we measure to the base cabinets - 2' out and in the other case they measure to the wall-- that is the issue I have with it. You can't change the rules.

We'll see what others say unless they are burnt out on this. :grin:

I agree. But I think the picture shows the same principle of your arguement. I do not see the 6" ell of the counter/penninsula (A) not making it a stand alone unit.

 

[charlie b]

It seems like some other fella thinks like Dennis does:

Not at all. In that figure, there is no "stand alone peninsula." The peninsula it shows is attached to a set of wall cabinets. So for the moment, Mike is simply voting "present."

 

[charlie b]

You can't change the rules.

I, at least, am not attempting to. I am applying 210.52(C)(1) to countertops on top of base cabinets attached to walls, and I am applying 210.52(C)(3) to countertops on top of peninsulas. And what exactly is a peninsula? That is the center of this discussion. For my part, if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then I am going to say it would taste good with a nice white wine sauce, for it is a duck.

OK, so I will reveal the basis of my beliefs. For the "stand alone peninsula," you wish to assign the first 24 inches from the wall to the world of 210.52(C)(1). But consider this: the homeowner cannot use that section in the same way they would use the "normal" countertop space. They can't get to it. They can't stand 25 inches from the wall, with the countertop space between their body and the wall. Therefore, it simply does not look, walk, or talk like a duck. Q.E.D.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree with you Charlie. If it were my choice I would call the stand alone- the entire piece- a peninsula. That what it looks like, feels like, etc. I have no problem with that. I am simply looking for consistency in interpretation.

One can see this stand alone as an entire peninsula that sticks out from the wall. Here the wall outlet would suffice.
or
We can call the entire peninsula a very, very deep wall cabinet-- so only one recep. is required.
or
It can be a 24' base with the rest a peninsula thus requiring 2 receptacles.

OK, so I will reveal the basis of my beliefs. For the "stand alone peninsula," you wish to assign the first 24 inches from the wall to the world of 210.52(C)(1). But consider this: the homeowner cannot use that section in the same way they would use the "normal" countertop space. They can't get to it. They can't stand 25 inches from the wall, with the countertop space between their body and the wall. Therefore, it simply does not look, walk, or talk like a duck. Q.E.D.

Okay so since when did that matter when using the NEC. Again consistency is what I think the NEC is looking for here. Adding more cabinets on the wall to create an "L" shape should do nothing to change how we look at that piece in question.
Consistency is not here if we say the picture that derek posted requires an outlet on the peninsula, as well as on the wall, however if we remove the other cabinets along the wall- which, by the way, have nothing to do with the peninsula, then you say we do not need a receptacle. :-? This does not feel right, sound right etc. :grin:

So in one instance that piece that you yourself stated does not look, walk, or talk like a duck is but a tad bit different, in the sense that you can stand on one extra side of it. This standing by it is not a NEC definition- it is purey Charlie's feeling. Again I agree with all that I just don't think that is the intent.

BTW, I think Derek's posted picture by Mike Holt does show what a peninsula is. It is the piece that is attached to the base countertop. Some say no base wall units then no peninsula. I say there is a base unit and the peninsula is attached to it, otherwise that stand alone has no meaning in the NEC other than a very deep counter-- which definitely makes silly of the whole affair.

 

[finster1]

Counter receptacle idea

Counter receptacle idea

Peninsula receptacle . I have found sillite to have a great product to use in peninsulas. Hook in into one of the other gfci receptacles and these are self contained not ugly easy to install and small footprint for this purpose where we all hate to cut into peoples cabinets.

 

[wwhitney]

Not at all. In that figure, there is no "stand alone peninsula." The peninsula it shows is attached to a set of wall cabinets.

And if the refrigerator in the figure were moved 6" to the left, so the righthand peninsula countertop edge is a straight line to the wall, the peninsular receptacle is no longer required? But if we move the refrigerator only 5" to the left, so there is a 1" jog in that righthand peninsula countertop edge, the peninsular receptacle is still required?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Dennis Alwon]

And if the refrigerator in the figure were moved 6" to the left, so the righthand peninsula countertop edge is a straight line to the wall, the peninsular receptacle is no longer required? But if we move the refrigerator only 5" to the left, so there is a 1" jog in that righthand peninsula countertop edge, the peninsular receptacle is still required?

Cheers, Wayne

Thats what they tell me and that has been my argument but it appears we are definitely in the minority. The good thing is were are right. :grin:

Finster- I agree the sillites recep. are wonderful and I have used them for years. They are now TR also. They have also come out with a neat little floor recep. that is TR. Sillite.com