Apartments vs. Condos

[tonype]

With repsect to minimum service levels, is a condo complex considered a series of 1-family dwellings (100-amps minimum each) or a multi-family dwelling (60-amps per apartment).

 

[mcclary's electrical]

With repsect to minimum service levels, is a condo complex considered a series of 1-family dwellings (100-amps minimum each) or a multi-family dwelling (60-amps per apartment).

I would consider condos a series of 1 family dwellings

 

[cowboyjwc]

While by definition it may be a cluster of single family, they are considered multi family in the building code. In the building code they would be an R-2 which is the same as an apartment (the only real difference between the two is that you rent one and own the other). An R-2 is residential occupancies containing sleeping units or more than two dwelling units where the occupants are primaily permanent in nature.

 

[hurk27]

While by definition it may be a cluster of single family, they are considered multi family in the building code. In the building code they would be an R-2 which is the same as an apartment (the only real difference between the two is that you rent one and own the other). An R-2 is residential occupancies containing sleeping units or more than two dwelling units where the occupants are primarily permanent in nature.

One reason the code must recognize that condo's are a single family home is the easement requirements for utility conductors, in a multi-family (apartments) building, utility can cross the boundaries of each unit, but in a condo each unit is a privet property and we can not trespass with the utility's to another unit, this is why fire walls are required, and many times separate metering to each unit.

If it were my call I would say separate one family houses, just zero lot lines:grin:

 

[cowboyjwc]

One reason the code must recognize that condo's are a single family home is the easement requirements for utility conductors, in a multi-family (apartments) building, utility can cross the boundaries of each unit, but in a condo each unit is a privet property and we can not trespass with the utility's to another unit, this is why fire walls are required, and many times separate metering to each unit.

If it were my call I would say separate one family houses, just zero lot lines:grin:

That's not necessarily true. Here the utility only cares up to the service point. After that we can chase the subfeeds to each unit. Now under ground might be the smarter way to do it, but nothing disallows you from running accross the units. Many have common attics. You only have gas meters at one end usually and you will run that piping through each unit.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

On condo or town houses you own the thing and that now causes problems as unit #2 can not run wires thru unit #1 . It is all about ownership. This is so if unit #2 burns out his underground feeder he can not cut up the floor in unit #1.

 

[hurk27]

That's not necessarily true. Here the utility only cares up to the service point. After that we can chase the subfeeds to each unit. Now under ground might be the smarter way to do it, but nothing disallows you from running accross the units. Many have common attics. You only have gas meters at one end usually and you will run that piping through each unit.

The problem is this has been over lookeed by inspectors and electricians both.
It can have a very high level of liability if we as electricians trespass with our conductors across someone else's property, I agree if there are common areas spelled out into the deeds of these places then we can use them, but these have to be spelled out in the planing process and not after the building has been built, take town homes very common around here, I have never seen common areas with these, most of the time when there sold the owner owns all the way to the fire wall between each unit, under it, and above it, to the property line in both front and back, at the with of each unit.

Here is one example as to why, And this landed in court as to what I read:
A set of town homes with 4 in a row, was deeded to each owner, and included the ground to which it was built on, one of the middle owners wanted a sunk in hot tub on his bottom floor, he hired a contractor to cut open the concrete floor and dig a hole to put the hot tub in, in the process the contractor cut the feeder from a meter pack to the other units past him, well the court ruled that since there was no right of way deeded under each unit, he was in the right to remove the utility's that trespassed on his property's in the way of putting in his hot tub, the original electrical contractor, and builder had to pay to install a separate service to each unit.

A second case that involved a strip mall (and this one happened here)

We had a strip mall that was originally was a build out rental type setup, but a few weeks after closing, they decided to sell each unit to the prospective renters, well the original electric contractor installed the service all at one end of the building, and ran feeders across the back of the building to each unit, no right of way was put in the deed and a owner in the middle decided he needed more storage space, the deed showed that he owned the property behind his store and in front, up to the walls of the adjoining unit, he has the back wall removed to build on and cut through these feeders and cuts power to 3 units after him, again he got ruling in his favor and the property owners who sold off the units was held liable to fix the problem.

So the NEC is not the only book we need to think about. right of ways and common areas must be addressed in the planing of condos or any attached building that will be sold off as separate pieces of properties.

John show this post to your city attorney and see what he tells you.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Had the issue about 8 years ago with a group of 3 town houses. Luckily my boss was informed of the problem. My feeders to the end unit was a pure nightmare. Not only did it turn what could been a 60 foot run under the slab into a 160 run but barely made it within 360 degrees. Real fun pulling that one in. Am sure there are many out there that are illegal.
Here locally an apartment complex turned all of there 8 unit apartments ( 4 up 4 down) into condo units. I rented one of them for about 6 months. I don't know how they worked this mess out legally. Perhaps part of deed.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Well actually in a condo you only own the building and you are under the control of the HOA. In a townhome you own the land also. When you say condo, you could just as well say apartment, again, owership is the only difference.

I will look into it, but we have been running chases through garages for years here and have never heard a word about it.

 

[peter d]

On condo or town houses you own the thing and that now causes problems as unit #2 can not run wires thru unit #1 . It is all about ownership. This is so if unit #2 burns out his underground feeder he can not cut up the floor in unit #1.

That's not true. At least in my area, by law when you own a condo you don't own the space between the walls and floors between units.

 

[cowboyjwc]

That's not true. At least in my area, by law when you own a condo you don't own the space between the walls and floors between units.

You own what they call the air space.

 

[eprice]

In this discussion, as in many others, it is important that we are all using the same terms to mean the same thing. In my area, town homes are not the same thing as condos. Town homes would be like hurk27's example in post #7, where the owner owns his unit and the land it sits on. There wouldn't be any common spaces inside through which to run the utilities.

Condo's on the other hand would be as Peter D and cowboyjwc describe. The homeowners association owns the structure. The individual owner owns his air space inside. Attic spaces and underground would be owned by the association and governed by the homeowners covenants.

 

[cowboyjwc]

In this discussion, as in many others, it is important that we are all using the same terms to mean the same thing. In my area, town homes are not the same thing as condos. Town homes would be like hurk27's example in post #7, where the owner owns his unit and the land it sits on. There wouldn't be any common spaces inside through which to run the utilities.

Condo's on the other hand would be as Peter D and cowboyjwc describe. The homeowners association owns the structure. The individual owner owns his air space inside. Attic spaces and underground would be owned by the association and governed by the homeowners covenants.

Very well put and my understanding also.

I did check into running the subfeeds through a chase in the garages. It is covered in the CC&R's that access will be granted if necessary.

 

[hurk27]

In this discussion, as in many others, it is important that we are all using the same terms to mean the same thing. In my area, town homes are not the same thing as condos. Town homes would be like hurk27's example in post #7, where the owner owns his unit and the land it sits on. There wouldn't be any common spaces inside through which to run the utilities.

Condo's on the other hand would be as Peter D and cowboyjwc describe. The homeowners association owns the structure. The individual owner owns his air space inside. Attic spaces and underground would be owned by the association and governed by the homeowners covenants.

I guess you right on the terminology part, as here we have a few duplex and single story strip motel like condos, and these would be kind of like a town home without the second story. But I agree that most multistory high rise type building structure condos, would have common areas

 

[hurk27]

guess I could tell this story, we have one serving utility that is very specific on where they want the meter located, REMCO, and sometimes they will even insist it go right on the front of a house right where the living room is, well we had a very big contractor that started a large subdivision in there area, all zero lot line or duplex condos, well on the very first duplex, we ran into a placement problem, and they wouldn't budge, they wouldn't allow two separate meters, and they wanted a 2 gain meter pack on one of the units garage wall, we wound up having the state intervene, and forced them to accept the meter pack straddling the fire wall in the back, it was the only time we won a battle with this POCO, but it was all based upon the property lines and how we had to keep each persons utility's out of the others property.
I have never seen anyone try to build a multi unit town home type condo in this POCO's area yet, as they will only allow one lateral to a building.:roll: