Hello to all! Have duplex rental, want to jump hot and cold lines on each hot water tank at premises. should I go hot to cold on each tank or should I go hot to cold to hot to cold in one continuous piece. Also should i hit gas line for each tank also? And should this tap the GEC at an accesable point, or do these bonding jumpers suffice without irreversably compressing at some point to the GEC. Thanks!
Gas hot water tank bonding?
- Thread starter tld38
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mcclary's electrical
Senior Member
- Location
- VA
What type of gas liine?
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Volta
Senior Member
- Location
- Columbus, Ohio
As I think McClary was working towards, if the gas line is an iron pipe, you can likely ignore it, but if it is flexible metal 'CSST' type, you should see what brand it is and get the specific requirements from the manufacturer.
I also would simply bond hot to cold at the water heater, though I usually do it on the horizontal sections of the plumbing rather than the drops to the tank so it is less likely to be disturbed by the plumber during a tank replacement.
I also would simply bond hot to cold at the water heater, though I usually do it on the horizontal sections of the plumbing rather than the drops to the tank so it is less likely to be disturbed by the plumber during a tank replacement.
Many of our regional inspectors "request" that a bond between metallic piping for cold-hot and gas (if present) be installed at the water heater as it gives them one "standard" location to check for bonding.
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
If you are using single handle fousets in the shower or tub, no jumpers needed at water heater. It is done in the wall by the instlation of the valve.
Volta
Senior Member
- Location
- Columbus, Ohio
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I don't see faucets listed in 250.8.
they conductive path between hot and cold water pipes makes them electrically one system. If dielectric unions are not used on the water heater the bonding jumper between the hot and cold is also pointless
some hot water heaters have fiberglass tanks and some faucets are all plastic. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that the two piping systems could be isolated.
Volta
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- Columbus, Ohio
I don't think an electrically conductive path changes the number of piping systems. It it up to building codes to have the final say on the number of metal water piping systems in a building. I call it three: cold, hot, and drain (when of metal). The fact that they share the same water, pathways, basins, faucets, appliances, etc., does not necessarily reduce them to a single "water piping system".
Oh, not while the tank is being replaced :roll:.
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
I don't see faucets listed in 250.8
The purpose of bonding jumpers is to connect two piping systems together as one. Back in your grandaddys days, hot and cold were two different systems tied together at the water heater. If you removed the heater, or had a bad union connection, you broke the system. With modern day single handle valves there are not two systems. There is one system with hot and cold water being diverted thru it with 3 to 5 junctions.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Is the water coming out of the faucet two different types of water if you turn on both the hot and cold valves?
If the valve is one assembly that is conductive material would you still put a bonding jumper from the hot and cold supply pipes because you call them two separate systems?
If you have two water heaters piped in series do you now have 3 piping systems?
It is one water system all pressured from the same source (in most cases) with possible electrically isolated sections in the piping including the connection at the water heater.
If the water heater tank is made of non conductive material then a dielectric union would not be needed unless there is metallic hub for water connections, and then it would depend on the material of the hub.
Installing a bonding jumper does not hurt anything but is not always required.
Some day when a water heater gets changed the jumper may be required.
Some day the piping could be changed and a section of piping may become electrically isolated, how are we supposed to future proof that?
If you are a plumber there may be separate systems, if you are any other trade it is water piping, if you are an electrician it is water piping with possible electrically isolated sections.
The danger of outside neutral currnet that exists when removing a water meter should not exist at the water heater if it did we would have many more required bonding jumpers to install.
If the valve is one assembly that is conductive material would you still put a bonding jumper from the hot and cold supply pipes because you call them two separate systems?
If you have two water heaters piped in series do you now have 3 piping systems?
It is one water system all pressured from the same source (in most cases) with possible electrically isolated sections in the piping including the connection at the water heater.
If the water heater tank is made of non conductive material then a dielectric union would not be needed unless there is metallic hub for water connections, and then it would depend on the material of the hub.
Installing a bonding jumper does not hurt anything but is not always required.
Some day when a water heater gets changed the jumper may be required.
Some day the piping could be changed and a section of piping may become electrically isolated, how are we supposed to future proof that?
If you are a plumber there may be separate systems, if you are any other trade it is water piping, if you are an electrician it is water piping with possible electrically isolated sections.
The danger of outside neutral currnet that exists when removing a water meter should not exist at the water heater if it did we would have many more required bonding jumpers to install.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
I don't see faucets listed in 250.8
Is that same section that lists couplings, t's, copper tubing, 90 degree elbows, male adapter etc etc etc. ?
That section actually has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. That section tells you how you can and can not connect your bonding or grounding conductor to what ever it is you happen to be bonding or grounding not what requires bonding and grounding.
There is no NEC requirement that specifically mandates a bonding jumper between hot and cold piping systems. It simply does not exist regardless of the whims of some inspectors and the lack of understanding by some electricians.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
That was the simpler answer that I could not seem to find the words for.
Cold Fusion
Senior Member
- Location
- way north
Yes, it is an excellent answer. My understanding is the H-C bond at the tank is to prevent any stray currents from corroding the tank through electrolysis. As was already mentioned, dielectric unions are required. Normally this is done on electric tanks since the heaters can develop pinholes and leak current to the tank.
I'm also certain I would not put any particular credulence in my opinion. It does not come from any research. It is from the years I spent growing up in the family mechanical contracting business.
cf
Volta
Senior Member
- Location
- Columbus, Ohio
No, AFAIK the number of piping systems doesn't change when a faucet is replaced.
Yes, one is hot, one is cold.
Then it's warm :grin:.
Yes. The faucet may connect those sections under the sink together, but there are very easily PVC appliance connectors that electrically isolate the faucet from any metal piping.
Maybe, have to ask a plumber.
Our transformer separately derived systems are pressurized from the same source too, but we still consider them separate systems.
?? No, not needed
.My main point, at least with a conductive tank, is that it is required while the WH is being replaced. Otherwise, the hot water system may not be bonded at that time. Electrically, it matters not if the pipe is empty at that time, it still may become energized.
Plumbing inspections and knowledgeable inspectors?
Well, I don't like the isolated sections, but I don't see 250.104(A) as requiring every section of each piping system to be electrically continuous, only that each system be bonded. Unlike 250.52(A)(1).
Not a concern for 250.104, this only concerns faults on the premises wiring.
Those can all be components of a single system, we are not using them for bonding to the piping.Is that same section that lists couplings, t's, copper tubing, 90 degree elbows, male adapter etc etc etc. ?
That section actually has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. That section tells you how you can and can not connect your bonding or grounding conductor to what ever it is you happen to be bonding or grounding not what requires bonding and grounding.
Maybe. But if you are using the plural for those systems, they each need to be bonded per 250.104(A)(1).
I don?t jump the hot and cold water lines in new construction but we still do it in some older construction.
Where I?m at plumbing code calls for tempering valves on all new hot water heaters.
With old construction and doing service upgrades we bond the hot and cold lines if there are less than 2 shower units. One shower valve can be removed and the other still works as the bond.
Where I?m at plumbing code calls for tempering valves on all new hot water heaters.
With old construction and doing service upgrades we bond the hot and cold lines if there are less than 2 shower units. One shower valve can be removed and the other still works as the bond.
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