28 Circuits in 20 circuit panel

[1793]

I just looked at a Home Inspection job and the HI noted that the 100A MB flush mount panel has 28 circuits in a 20 circuit panel.

This service has an Inspection date of 2000. Aside from violating 110.3(B) what would be some issues with this current setup that I could talk with the Seller about.

A panel change would not be that difficult for this setup. Not sure if the Buyer is going to require this or just looking at their options and $$$$.

As always, thanks

 

[480sparky]

Could some of the circuits be combined?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

It is violation no matter how old it is. Chances are it won't pass a load calculation with the added breakers. Smart buyer knows that today they are the buyer and someday the seller.

 

[electricmanscott]

The 1st question is are you sure it is only a 20 circuit panel?

 

[Cavie]

Check the lable and see if it might be a 20/30.

 

[cadpoint]

Well this just beg's for the answer to most of the questions of; how old is the panel, what exact panel is it,
or when did they start mini breakers for it (if at all), are the breakers listed for two wires under a breaker? ...

 

[growler]

Aside from violating 110.3(B) what would be some issues with this current setup that I could talk with the Seller about.

It is violation no matter how old it is. Chances are it won't pass a load calculation with the added breakers.

I'm with Jim on this one. When I look at a house with a 100 Amp. panel I would start with a quick load calculation. First I would check to see if there is a gas range, water heater and dryer. If these are electric I would do a real load calcualtion.

If this is a 20 position panel odds are those circuits were added on during an un-permitted job.

 

[LarryFine]

The circuit quantity matters more than the space quantity.

 

[1793]

The 1st question is are you sure it is only a 20 circuit panel?

Check the lable and see if it might be a 20/30.

Well this just beg's for the answer to most of the questions of; how old is the panel, what exact panel is it,
or when did they start mini breakers for it (if at all), are the breakers listed for two wires under a breaker? ...

The panel is a Siemens 100A MB panel. The only part of the label visible is the breaker drawing showing only 20 spaces. The property is a Patio Home built in 2000. There is a Dryer, A/C - 40 Min circuit, Range. It appears that at least one of the twin breakers has had the rejection clip removed.

 

[hurk27]

If this is an ITE 20/30 panel, look at the lower five spaces, they will have a notch in the buss where the breaker stabs on, this is to allow CTL tandem type ITE breakers, if the stabs look just like the stabs above it then it doesn't allow CTL breakers, if the notch is on all the stabs then it is a 20/40 panel. (CTL)= circuit terminal limiting I think?

 

[1793]

If this is an ITE 20/30 panel, look at the lower five spaces, they will have a notch in the buss where the breaker stabs on, this is to allow CTL tandem type ITE breakers, if the stabs look just like the stabs above it then it doesn't allow CTL breakers, if the notch is on all the stabs then it is a 20/40 panel. (CTL)= circuit terminal limiting I think?

I did remove the bottom breaker and that is where I noticed that the twin breaker had the clip REMOVED. The buss is solid, no notch, so no twin breaker allowed.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Then you have your answer. The piggyback breakers are not listed for this panel. Nows the time to do load calc. and sell them on a 200 amp 40

 

[1793]

Then you have your answer. The piggyback breakers are not listed for this panel. Nows the time to do load calc. and sell them on a 200 amp 40

Oh Boy, let the fun begin. I'll do a calculation sometime this weekend but I feel that the 100A is adequate, just not enough space with this panel.

 

[iwire]

Chances are it won't pass a load calculation with the added breakers.

I'm with Jim on this one. When I look at a house with a 100 Amp. panel I would start with a quick load calculation.

I don't do a lot of dwelling unit load calculation (OK none :grin but why do you assume a 100 amp service is not adequate?

If you did a fully NEC compliant load calculation for this home and it came out to 95 amps what would you do?

My first thought when I read the OP was that I would price up a simple panel change on the high side. I am not saying gouge anyone but I would not look to cut the price down in anyway.

The seller will be motivated to do only what is required to make it compliant, there is no value to the seller in increasing the capacity of the service. If by chance they asked me to increase the service it would be a substantial adder to the original quote.

This is the time to make some money, in return get it down ASAP so the sale can go through.

 

[growler]

I don't do a lot of dwelling unit load calculation (OK none :grin but why do you assume a 100 amp service is not adequate?

I don't really assume that the 100amp is not big enough but I can get a pretty good idea if it's close or over in just a couple of minutes by checking the major appliances (gas or electric ). I should have said a 100 amp panel with about 8 extra breakers or a sub panel or two.

Many house flippers will switch from gas to electric appliances to save money and put in an electric water heater & range.

It's warmer here and you really can have a total electric house if you want it. Once you switch over to a heat pump then it just a choice of water heater, range and dryer.

Iwire things are different here. That 100A panel may be fed useing the service cable from an old 60A fuse panel. The remodel job was probably done under the table and no inspections so there can be more things to check for.

 

[electricmanscott]

This service has an Inspection date of 2000. Aside from violating 110.3(B) what would be some issues with this current setup that I could talk with the Seller about.

Iwire things are different here. That 100A panel may be fed useing the service cable from an old 60A fuse panel. The remodel job was probably done under the table and no inspections so there can be more things to check for.

I doubt the service would have passed inspection if this was true. You are really throwing out some serious speculation here.



I'd advise the seller that the panel was over its rated circuit capacity and it should be replaced. If they said is this really a dangerous situation I'd probably say no.

I certainly wouldn't waste my brain cells on a load calc for something like this.

 

[acrwc10]

The panel is a Siemens 100A MB panel. The only part of the label visible is the breaker drawing showing only 20 spaces. The property is a Patio Home built in 2000. There is a Dryer, A/C - 40 Min circuit, Range. It appears that at least one of the twin breakers has had the rejection clip removed.

I doubt the service would have passed inspection if this was true. You are really throwing out some serious speculation here.



I'd advise the seller that the panel was over its rated circuit capacity and it should be replaced. If they said is this really a dangerous situation I'd probably say no.

I certainly wouldn't waste my brain cells on a load calc for something like this.

you haven't said how many sq. ft. the house is but I think you have stated enough information to justify a load calc. after all it would take less time then this post has taken.:grin::grin:

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I don't do a lot of dwelling unit load calculation (OK none :grin but why do you assume a 100 amp service is not adequate?

If you did a fully NEC compliant load calculation for this home and it came out to 95 amps what would you do?

My first thought when I read the OP was that I would price up a simple panel change on the high side. I am not saying gouge anyone but I would not look to cut the price down in anyway.

The seller will be motivated to do only what is required to make it compliant, there is no value to the seller in increasing the capacity of the service. If by chance they asked me to increase the service it would be a substantial adder to the original quote.

This is the time to make some money, in return get it down ASAP so the sale can go through.

He said dryer,range, AC so looks like all electric. Being 8 circuits got added to a panel intended for 20 i suspect typical un permitted work. All i am saying is i would not price out a sub panel and then get caught at inspection with a problem. It might be fine but gut feeling is it will be over.

 

[growler]

I feel that the 100A is adequate, just not enough space with this panel.

I don't do a lot of dwelling unit load calculation (OK none :grin but why do you assume a 100 amp service is not adequate?
My first thought when I read the OP was that I would price up a simple panel change on the high side.

I certainly wouldn't waste my brain cells on a load calc for something like this.

I don't assume that the panel is not adequate but the number of breakers doesn' tell you anything and even the size of the house doesn't give much information. A total electric house that is 1500 sq ft can require a larger service than a 3000 ft gas home.

So why would everyone assume that everything is OK when they did make one mistake (red flag).

A load calculation will give the information needed for a minimum of effort.

Once a home inspection had been performed and an electrician hired to check out any faults listed it is up to the electrician to give an honest opinion of the conditions ( those that he is hired to check out). If the service is to small then they should be notified and if a larger panel is all that's needed they should get this information.

If the customer ask if I think this panel is safe or that the service is large enough then just what am I supposed to base my opinion on. "Sure it looks fine to me".

If the seller finds out that the service is not "adaquate" then it is up to the seller to disclose this information to the potential buyer. So it may be in his best interest to do so or make it right. There is a lawyer on every corner with his hand out.

 

[1793]

you haven't said how many sq. ft. the house is but I think you have stated enough information to justify a load calc. after all it would take less time then this post has taken.:grin::grin:

This Patio House is about 3,000 sqft. Gas water heater. With the On-Line calculator and the information I know I come up with ~95A load. Close but not over 100A.