Using Clamp on meter to measure 4.16kV current

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PhaseShift

Senior Member
Can a typical clamp on meter rated for 600V usage be used to measure current on an 4.16kV MV circuit. Obviously you would never want to try to measure 4.16kV voltage with this 600V meter, however can you use it to measure current since you are only looking at the magnetic field from the current?
 

kingpb

Senior Member
Location
SE USA as far as you can go
Occupation
Engineer, Registered
Can a typical clamp on meter rated for 600V usage be used to measure current on an 4.16kV MV circuit. Obviously you would never want to try to measure 4.16kV voltage with this 600V meter, however can you use it to measure current since you are only looking at the magnetic field from the current?

You can do anything once, the outcome will depend on whether you ever do it again......

Exactly who are you going to have clamp that meter on there, and what level of PPE are you going to propose?

BTW: Can I get your fullname and SSN, I'd like to initiate a life insurance policy so I can retire in the event something doens't go quite as planned :grin:
 

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
As I'm sure any POCO guy on here will chime in and tell you, the induced voltage field around 4kv lines is well in excess of 600 volts. Care to guess what's gonna happen?

Voltage ratings on test equipment are there for good reason. You bust those ratings and you will be very sorry. (If you survive.)

BTW, anyone remember a similar thread about a 4kv motor?
 

mikeames

Senior Member
Location
Germantown MD
Occupation
Teacher - Master Electrician - 2017 NEC
Wait a min...... I am going to catch crap for this but hear me out.

I agree that this is foolish. However lets look at the facts. Someone can correct me if I am wrong and I am sure they will.

Take a 15kv rated fully insulated cable with 4kv on it. Assuming someone was not so smart and they actually put a clamp on around that cable with no other exposed elecrical terminals around what would the result be. I am guessing a smoked meter. The other issue in the back of my head is the voltage wanting to peirce through the shielded cable to the laminated jaws of the amp meter?

I have read the articles posted several times each in the past and understand the CAT ratings and build specs for each rating, but in open air with an insulated cable what would fail aside from the meter from getting too much flux from the abnormally high EMF.

Lets assume this is a burried resi distribution cable in a trench.
 

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
I have no idea what that even means.:-?

Basically it means that at MV and HV levels, there is a fairly strong voltage gradient that starts at a low level and gets higher as you get closer to the conductor. If I can find the exact reference in my Electrical Engineer book IIRC there is even a formula to show how much voltage can be present at "x" distance from a live MV/HV conductor. I'll post that info when I find it.

All this deals with insulated or bare conductors but not shielded conductors.

This is one reason why there are minimum approach distances to MV/HV conductors and bus while energized.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Bob,

Think 'non contact voltage sensor'.

Around any conductor at any voltage you have an electric field. That electric field will induce voltage differences in stuff held near the conductor.

We don't know how dangerous this really is; IMHO it would depend upon the insulation system around the 4.16KV conductor. If the insulation system is good enough that it is considered safe for a person to approach the conductor then how much danger is there with a clamp-on meter?

Consider: a line worker 'bonded on' to a high voltage line. They are working bare handed on that line. What is the danger mechanism if they use a clamp meter on the line?

There is, of course, the separate question of getting an accurate measurement. What would the electric field do to the meter, and are there any concentric neutral or semiconductive layers that are part of the insulation system and carrying current?

-Jon
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Basically it means that at MV and HV levels, there is a fairly strong voltage gradient that starts at a low level and gets higher as you get closer to the conductor. If I can find the exact reference in my Electrical Engineer book IIRC there is even a formula to show how much voltage can be present at "x" distance from a live MV/HV conductor. I'll post that info when I find it.

All this deals with insulated or bare conductors but not shielded conductors.


No one said bare conductors and I really doubt anyone was planning on getting that close to a bare conductor.


e induced voltage field around 4kv lines is well in excess of 600 volts

Hmm, how are you measuring that?

The higher the load you try to place on that 'induced voltage' the lower it will fall.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
The higher the load you try to place on that 'induced voltage' the lower it will fall.

I figure that the problem is that you have parts of the meter/measuring circuit that are at relatively high impedance, and thus not presenting a very big load. Put them in the kV/cm electric field that we are talking about, and the voltage induced might screw up the measurement or even damage the meter.

-Jon
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
Can a typical clamp on meter rated for 600V usage be used to measure current on an 4.16kV MV circuit. Obviously you would never want to try to measure 4.16kV voltage with this 600V meter, however can you use it to measure current since you are only looking at the magnetic field from the current?

OK, few things here. First, if your cable is sheilded than forget it, you won't get any meaningful readings. Second, if it is bare you better have your life insurance up to date, no one would do that. Even if it is unsheilded and insulated your readings will not be accurate.

Here is how the MV guys do this, find a CT, they will be everywhere. Take a clamp on reading on the seconday side of the CT and multiply the reading by the CT ratio. Do not open the secondary of the CT. And you lwill need the correct PPE, that can vary greatly depending on where you can access the CT secondary.

The real question is why do you need to do this?
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
Wait a min...... I am going to catch crap for this but hear me out.

I agree that this is foolish. However lets look at the facts. Someone can correct me if I am wrong and I am sure they will.

Take a 15kv rated fully insulated cable with 4kv on it. Assuming someone was not so smart and they actually put a clamp on around that cable with no other exposed elecrical terminals around what would the result be. I am guessing a smoked meter. The other issue in the back of my head is the voltage wanting to peirce through the shielded cable to the laminated jaws of the amp meter?

I have read the articles posted several times each in the past and understand the CAT ratings and build specs for each rating, but in open air with an insulated cable what would fail aside from the meter from getting too much flux from the abnormally high EMF.

Lets assume this is a burried resi distribution cable in a trench.



It seems you are hinting that it won't hurt it since it's induction.

I smoked a non contact VD on the secondary of a xfmr for a neon sign.(very quickly, I might add) It does happen.
 

mikeames

Senior Member
Location
Germantown MD
Occupation
Teacher - Master Electrician - 2017 NEC
No I am not saying it wont hurt the meter, and I am not saying you will get accurate readings because you wont. In fact if you read my post I wrote "I am guessing a smoked meter".
Also I was not talking about NCVD I was talking about an amp clamp. My origional post was meant to get people thinking. The first few posts basically said you would die without asking any details like if the cable was shilded, or it was bare, or if it were a high voltage non shielded cable etc.... Without the details its impossible to give an accurate answer. I took the liberty to work through a scenario where you would not die. None the less no circumstance made any sence. Much like iwire stated.
 
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mivey

Senior Member
Consider: a line worker 'bonded on' to a high voltage line. They are working bare handed on that line. What is the danger mechanism if they use a clamp meter on the line?

There is, of course, the separate question of getting an accurate measurement. What would the electric field do to the meter, and are there any concentric neutral or semiconductive layers that are part of the insulation system and carrying current?
I have used a clamp-on meter for many years on MV systems but I have always been in a tested, rated bucket or at a point where the conductor is insulated (less the CN, of course). In modern times, I added the use of tested, rated gloves. Of the untold times and number of meters I have used, no meter has ever been harmed. By being in the bucket and using the gloves, the meter is "bonded" to the line and the voltage isolation takes place across the bucket truck and gloves, not the meter.

*************************************************
DO NOT EVER DO THIS WITHOUT BEING ELECTRICALLY ISOLATED. MOST METERS CAN ONLY HANDLE 1KV AT MOST ACROSS THEIR INSULATION. THE METER IS NOT RATED TO INSULATE YOU AT THESE VOLTAGES. THAT IS WHAT THE BUCKET AND GLOVES ARE FOR.
*************************************************

For voltage measurements, we have portable meters that are designed to handle the high voltages.

I figure that the problem is that you have parts of the meter/measuring circuit that are at relatively high impedance, and thus not presenting a very big load. Put them in the kV/cm electric field that we are talking about, and the voltage induced might screw up the measurement or even damage the meter.
I have never had a problem. I suspect it would be an issue at high voltages but not at 4 kV. I would not attempt it at 500kV as I have heard the static is awful (and hurts). I have done it on 25 kV systems but would not be concerned even on a 46 kV system.

I have used flexi-cts snapped around the base of higher voltage bushings with no problems but at the higher voltages, there is usually a CT at the interesting points of the system.

Here is how the MV guys do this, find a CT, they will be everywhere. Take a clamp on reading on the seconday side of the CT and multiply the reading by the CT ratio. Do not open the secondary of the CT. And you lwill need the correct PPE, that can vary greatly depending on where you can access the CT secondary.
While they may be everywhere in some settings, CTs are certainly not everywhere on a utility distribution system.

In fact if you read my post I wrote "I am guessing a smoked meter".
If you do this while not isolated from other sources and ground, that would be a good guess but add a smoked person to the list.
 
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jghrist

Senior Member
If the cable is shielded and the shield is grounded at both ends, the voltage on the outside of the cable will be at ground potential. The problem is, there will be current induced in the shield so the meter will not measure the conductor current. If you are at a termination and the wire grounding the shield is available, you can negate the shield current by looping the grounding wire back through the clamp-on meter.

If the shield is ungrounded or grounded at one end only, then the current will be correct, but the cable shield may be at a dangerously high voltage. If you are at the grounded end, the outside of the cable will be at ground potential.
 

realolman

Senior Member
I have used a clamp-on meter for many years on MV systems but I have always been in a tested, rated bucket or at a point where the conductor is insulated (less the CN, of course). In modern times, I added the use of tested, rated gloves. Of the untold times and number of meters I have used, no meter has ever been harmed. By being in the bucket and using the gloves, the meter is "bonded" to the line and the voltage isolation takes place across the bucket truck and gloves, not the meter.

*************************************************
DO NOT EVER DO THIS WITHOUT BEING ELECTRICALLY ISOLATED. MOST METERS CAN ONLY HANDLE 1KV AT MOST ACROSS THEIR INSULATION. THE METER IS NOT RATED TO INSULATE YOU AT THESE VOLTAGES. THAT IS WHAT THE BUCKET AND GLOVES ARE FOR.
*************************************************

For voltage measurements, we have portable meters that are designed to handle the high voltages.

I have never had a problem. I suspect it would be an issue at high voltages but not at 4 kV. I would not attempt it at 500kV as I have heard the static is awful (and hurts). I have done it on 25 kV systems but would not be concerned even on a 46 kV system.

I have used flexi-cts snapped around the base of higher voltage bushings with no problems but at the higher voltages, there is usually a CT at the interesting points of the system.

While they may be everywhere in some settings, CTs are certainly not everywhere on a utility distribution system.

If you do this while not isolated from other sources and ground, that would be a good guess but add a smoked person to the list.

I agree with this. I used to be a lineman and we did it all the time...using rubber gloves. The ampmeter was a weird looking thing though. I don't know if that is because it was some sort of early model or it was highly insulated... or maybe it was just large to be easier to handle with the rubber gloves.

I think that if you have to ask, you should not try it.

And don't forget there are other phases in fairly close proximity that you could short out as well
 
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