afci problem

[arits74]

5000 sf house totally finished, no problems except 2 ceiling fans with the wall remotes that mount in your switch box on the wall,fans are on 2 seperate circuits in 2 tottaly different areas of the house,the afci breakers that runs these fans will not hold if the ground wire is hooked up to the fans,breaker stays on until fan control is turned on then breaker trips automatically,you can unhook the ground to the fan at the ceiling box and problem goes away.what are you suppose to do in a situation like this?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There is something amiss with the fans. Either the fans are defective or you have a bad wiring problem. If you disconnect the hot, neutral and ground at the fan, will the AFCI trip?

 

[arits74]

There is something amiss with the fans. Either the fans are defective or you have a bad wiring problem. If you disconnect the hot, neutral and ground at the fan, will the AFCI trip?

no,and thats the same conclusion i have come to,but explaining this to the homeowner is getting no where,sometimes the arc faults make the electrician look bad

 

[macmikeman]

Demonstrate to the homeowner how a standard breaker will not trip the fans, and how the ark fault breaker does. Then send a bill for your wasted time demonstrating. Code requires the ark fault, not you having to educate the public. Enough consumer complaining will eventually reverse the current requirements, or make the OEM's produce ark fault breakers that do not false trip. Get your customer pissed at the law, not you.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Demonstrate to the homeowner how a standard breaker will not trip the fans, and how the ark fault breaker does.

I don't agree with this on the surface but I know you know what I am about to say but I want to clarify.

If an arc fault trips a breaker and a standard breaker works then this does not necessarily mean the fan is bad. If the wiring is disconnected and the AFCI works then the problem is in the fan. Also if the AFCI trips with the switch on and no fan connected then you have a bad circuit.

 

[arits74]

I don't agree with this on the surface but I know you know what I am about to say but I want to clarify.

If an arc fault trips a breaker and a standard breaker works then this does not necessarily mean the fan is bad. If the wiring is disconnected and the AFCI works then the problem is in the fan. Also if the AFCI trips with the switch on and no fan connected then you have a bad circuit.

it does not trip unless the fan is grounded,i know for a fact that the cause is in the fans,2 exact fans,2 exact problems,i told the home owner i could not take the afci out and he said he would take them all out and replace them with regular breakers after he moves in.i have done been paid in full for the job,i started to ask him if i could have the afcis he takes out,LOL

 

[Dennis Alwon]

it does not trip unless the fan is grounded,i know for a fact that the cause is in the fans,2 exact fans,2 exact problems,i told the home owner i could not take the afci out and he said he would take them all out and replace them with regular breakers after he moves in.i have done been paid in full for the job,i started to ask him if i could have the afcis he takes out,LOL

Arits-- if the ground is disconnected then I think you are clear. I was thinking the ground disconnected at the switch but if it is disconnected at the fan then the fan is the issue. Something is bringing current into that ground.

 

[arits74]

Arits-- if the ground is disconnected then I think you are clear. I was thinking the ground disconnected at the switch but if it is disconnected at the fan then the fan is the issue. Something is bringing current into that ground.

the fans have the (brain) thing built in that the wall controll works and i believe the ground and neutral are tied together in this (brain) causing the problem

 

[Dennis Alwon]

the fans have the (brain) thing built in that the wall controll works and i believe the ground and neutral are tied together in this (brain) causing the problem

Why would they be tied together. If it were tied together at the wall switch then it would trip all the time. The receiver is built into the fan and I don't know why they would use a ground when the neutral is present.

I could see them using the ground at the wall switch for the electronics but as I said before that would trip all the time.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You have a switch that looks like this.

 

[cadpoint]

With everything disconnected did you try to ring out the wires? You could attach another new wire to extend to needle length, use a high ohm reading, try touching the other wires.

Did you meg the wires?

I going to guess a well placed nail/screw landed between the neutral and the bond, you can truely pick it up on a meg, somtimes one is just lucky with needles.

 

[arits74]

You have a switch that looks like this.

yes exactly like that,im just saying i believe the ground and neutral may be tied together in the fan some how,definately not on my end of the instalation,the reason i think they may be tied together in the fan is when you unhook the ground wire at the fan it works fine off the afci leading me to believe the ground and neutral are touching or tied together inside the fan

 

[Dennis Alwon]

yes exactly like that,im just saying i believe the ground and neutral may be tied together in the fan some how,definately not on my end of the instalation,the reason i think they may be tied together in the fan is when you unhook the ground wire at the fan it works fine off the afci leading me to believe the ground and neutral are touching or tied together inside the fan

I totally agree with that- I thought you were saying it was at the switch.

 

[cadpoint]

Don't run me over, more information came out, in my attempt to help the cause. :roll:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I going to guess a well placed nail/screw landed between the neutral and the bond, you can truely pick it up on a meg, somtimes one is just lucky with needles.

Jude if a nail were in the wire then the breaker would trip all the time. Disconnecting from the fan and the circuit works fine-- that sort of eliminates the wire as a problem, imo.

 

[arits74]

With everything disconnected did you try to ring out the wires? You could attach another new wire to extend to needle length, use a high ohm reading, try touching the other wires.

Did you meg the wires?

I going to guess a well placed nail/screw landed between the neutral and the bond, you can truely pick it up on a meg, somtimes one is just lucky with needles.

yes we rung out the wires but no megger,i could see your point if it was just one fan but its 2 of the same kind doing the same thing,and if the problem was in my wiring the afci would trip all the time not just when the fan is hooked up,again i can unhook the ground at the fans and the problem goes away so its definately not in my wiring.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Don't run me over, more information came out, in my attempt to help the cause. :roll:

Sorry-- too late.:grin:

 

[arits74]

im not gonna worry any more with it since the homeowner said he would change out all the breakers,LOL.and by the way i have never had a problem with an afci that i could not fix and most of the time its a minor problem with the wiring like a neutral and ground touching somewhere

 

[kwired]

17 posts and no one has mentioned contacting fan manufacturer? They obviously have a problem with an internal component.

 

[arits74]

17 posts and no one has mentioned contacting fan manufacturer? They obviously have a problem with an internal component.

i dont speak chinese LOL