Cost Hot or Cold

[markstg]

For those EC's that have a choice of changing a residential service hot or calling the utility and have them cut power before changing the service, do you charge more for coordinating with the utility to cut/restore power than you do if you cut the service over hot, no utility required or is your price the same?

 

[WinZip]

You have to charge more because the power co may show up later than yourself.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Here, we cut it and reconnect it and then the POCO comes by later and make a permenant connection at the riser and puts a locking ring on the meter.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would rather die than coordinate with the poco. I work it hot-- I know shoot me.

 

[satcom]

If you have to wait for the utility to disconnect you will need to cover all the waiting time, and charge the customer.

 

[WinZip]

I would also work it hot no big deal but if you do need to Involve the P Co you have to charge more, here when we change out an underground fed meter base we have to get a drop connect order number from the P Co an then wait for them to disconnect the service an wait again for them to return.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I guess I didn't answer your question. If I had to coordinate with a POCO I would set the time and then I would bill them for any extra time you spend waiting. Their rules will change quickly when they start paying for your time.

I actually told the POCO here that I would do that the next time I had to wait for them. They send they have paid out before to other EC's.

 

[markstg]

Thanks for the quick comments. Sounds reasonable to charge more since it can turn into a hurry up and wait....to bad its on my dime, but then being safe is what counts.

 

[zog]

OSHA cares not what it costs. They will enforce this 70E article.

NFPA 70E Article 130.1 Justification for work. Live parts to which an employee might be exposed shall be put into an electrically safe work condition before an employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations.

(Zog's note: If you dont know what "Infeasible" means, look it up; it means "incapable of being done". Dont confuse feasible with convenient.)

Energized parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground are not required to be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.

NOTE 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include, but are not limited to, interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment

 

[markstg]

OSHA cares not what it costs. They will enforce this 70E article.

Zog......It seems many EC's do not concern themselves with the OSHA rule, as many EC's in this forum have said they change services hot, not because they have to, but because it it is less time consuming, therefore less costly.

I was asking whether EC's charge more when they have to get the Utility company involved, and as they stated it cost more in their time, so it is an additional charge. As they stated they charge less if they change it hot of thier own volition and that seems to be their preference so they can charge the least.

The reason I was asking was because in my area, it is standard operating practice for EC's to change residential services hot, and since I was not going to allow that for a service change I have coming up, I didn't want to be surprised at getting a cost adder for requiring that they do it cold.

 

[zog]

Zog......It seems many EC's do not concern themselves with the OSHA rule, as many EC's in this forum have said they change services hot, not because they have to, but because it it is less time consuming, therefore less costly.

I was asking whether EC's charge more when they have to get the Utility company involved, and as they stated it cost more in their time, so it is an additional charge. As they stated they charge less if they change it hot of thier own volition and that seems to be their preference so they can charge the least.

The reason I was asking was because in my area, it is standard operating practice for EC's to change residential services hot, and since I was not going to allow that for a service change I have coming up, I didn't want to be surprised at getting a cost adder for requiring that they do it cold.

It is just the law, you decide to follow it or not. Define "less costly", are you including the possibel tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars OSHA fine? How about the average cost of a serious esurvivable electrical accident of $17.6M??

EC's are getting busted and fined by OSHA every day for working hot, times are changing.

 

[Ruff-N]

IMO The ECs working these overhead service changes hot should let the POCO know that they are in the process of doing a temp. disconnect, removing the meter, cutting the meter seal, etc. That is where the POCO has the problem. And as far as reconnecting a hot service the EC should provide the employee with FR shirt,pants, hot gloves with leather protectors, Electrical Rated hard hat with ER face shield, and ER steel toe shoes, secondary blankets etc. to make the diconnect and reconnect safer. Other wise call the POCO and they will take care of it and do it in a safe manner . Of course for UG services its a given to let the POCO do the disconnect and reconnect, the service connects inside a transformer, pedestal, or handhole and these have POCO locks and Penta head bolts. And you don't want to cut POCO locks!

 

[LarryFine]

It depends on how close to hot "hot" is. We usually pull the meter, jumper from the old base load-side to the new base load-side, and the POCO does the rest.

I don't like hot more than I used to not like it. The older I get, the older I want to get.

I work it hot-- I know shoot me.

If we had more electricians like you, we'd have fewer electricians like you. :grin:

 

[hurk27]

OSHA cares not what it costs. They will enforce this 70E article.

NFPA 70E Article 130.1 Justification for work. Live parts to which an employee might be exposed shall be put into an electrically safe work condition before an employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations.

(Zog's note: If you dont know what "Infeasible" means, look it up; it means "incapable of being done". Dont confuse feasible with convenient.)

Energized parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground are not required to be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.

NOTE 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include, but are not limited to, interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment

Guess Linemen must be exempt from OSHA?

As they do work hot all the time? mater of fact, they will most likely connect the same service hot instead of pulling the transformer fuse

 

[iwire]

I would rather die than coordinate with the poco.

:grin:

Hoping you stay alive but I certainly understand your feelings about trying to coordinate with the poco.

 

[busman]

It is just the law, you decide to follow it or not. Define "less costly", are you including the possibel tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars OSHA fine? How about the average cost of a serious esurvivable electrical accident of $17.6M??

EC's are getting busted and fined by OSHA every day for working hot, times are changing.

Well, 70E is not REALLY the law. It's a standard that OSHA uses, but not law. Certainly if someone gets hurt, OSHA WILL fine you and probably cite 70E as a reasonable standard for safety, but it's not the law.

Mark

"What is the connection between NFPA 70E and OSHA? NFPA 70E was originally developed at OSHA’s request to address electrical hazards in the workplace. OSHA bases its electrical safety requirements on the comprehensive information in NFPA 70E. Even though OSHA does not mandate compliance with NFPA 70E itself, it considers NFPA 70E to be an effective how-to manual for OSHA regulation compliance"

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Maybe I am a bit of a risk taker. Okay, Chris Kennedy has been in the car with me driving so I better be straight. I am a big risk taker :grin:.

Seriously, taking precautions with an overhead service, using a fiberglass ladder and connecting one at a time, I really don't see the danger. Probably more danger in me falling from the ladder than from shock.

In all the years of doing this I did get a tingle once-- I was reconnecting on a wooden ladder in the rain. That was almost 30 years ago. Barely felt the voltage.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

I don't like hot more than I used to not like it. The older I get, the older I want to get.

I feel the same way.

 

[ControlFreak]

Guess Linemen must be exempt from OSHA?

As they do work hot all the time? mater of fact, they will most likely connect the same service hot instead of pulling the transformer fuse

Have you seen the PPE measures that Linemen take when working hot? They are certainly as safe as can be.

 

[iwire]

"What is the connection between NFPA 70E and OSHA? NFPA 70E was originally developed at OSHA?s request to address electrical hazards in the workplace. OSHA bases its electrical safety requirements on the comprehensive information in NFPA 70E. Even though OSHA does not mandate compliance with NFPA 70E itself, it considers NFPA 70E to be an effective how-to manual for OSHA regulation compliance"

I think that is now outdated info but really what is the point anyway?

Either way it will be applied and fines will be handed out even when no accident has happened,