Dining Room

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I have two SABC's feeding the kitchen recepts. I have another AFCI protected circuit feeding two recepts in the dining room. Can I also feed the living room recepts from the dining room circuit?

 

[cpal]

(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

 

[Buck Parrish]

I agree with cpal.
You can put the sabc on the dinning room if it's afci protected. But no other rooms.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

The 2 SABC's are not supplying any other outlets. The dining room is small and there are only two recepts on that circuit. My question is can the dining room circuit feed other outlets? Prior to AFCI requirments, I would feed the DR recepts from the SABC's. FWIW, I use a MWBC to feed my SABC's so AFCI incorporation is not possible.

 

[kwired]

The 2 SABC's are not supplying any other outlets. The dining room is small and there are only two recepts on that circuit. My question is can the dining room circuit feed other outlets? Prior to AFCI requirments, I would feed the DR recepts from the SABC's. FWIW, I use a MWBC to feed my SABC's so AFCI incorporation is not possible.

Read again I believe it says the 2 or more SABC shall not feed any other outlets or something very close to that. The dining room receptacles are required to be on the 2 or more SABC. If you run a separate circuit for the dining room receptacles it is still considered a SABC.

As far as your MWBC it is not possible to use it anymore unless you can get a 2 pole AFCI breaker.

 

[Split Bolt]

AFCI protection on your MWBCs is possible. You'll need to use a 2-pole GFCI breaker. As far as feeding off of you dining room receptacles for something else, it doesn't matter how small the dining room is. The code requires 2 or more SABCs. You installed more than the minimum 2, but they are still SABCs and cannot feed other circuits.

 

[Split Bolt]

I meant to say 2-pole "AFCI" breaker, not "GFCI" breaker.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Read again I believe it says the 2 or more SABC shall not feed any other outlets or something very close to that. The dining room receptacles are required to be on the 2 or more SABC. If you run a separate circuit for the dining room receptacles it is still considered a SABC.

As far as your MWBC it is not possible to use it anymore unless you can get a 2 pole AFCI breaker.

Here is a shared neutral 2 pole afci http://www.arcadvisor.com/afci.html

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Ok, I got it. The dining room circuit is considered a SABC. I knew it could be fed from a SABC but assumed it could also be independent from the SABC if desired.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

You do not need to have 2 circuits in the dining room. However you still can not feed other areas like living room off of it. Dining room is a SA circuit and no lights off it either

 

[charlie b]

210.52(B) has a list of the rooms that are required to be served by the SABC's. Living Room is not on that list. That is the essence of the issue.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Ok, I got it. The dining room circuit is considered a SABC. I knew it could be fed from a SABC but assumed it could also be independent from the SABC if desired.

The dining room recep. do not need to connect to the SABC in the kitchen however they are considered to be a sabc. I usually run a separate circuit for the dining room since those recep. must be on AFCI. Then I have 2 or more SABC's for the kitchen.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

The dining room recep. do not need to connect to the SABC in the kitchen however they are considered to be a sabc. I usually run a separate circuit for the dining room since those recep. must be on AFCI. Then I have 2 or more SABC's for the kitchen.

Yep......That's how I did it but it sure was nice pre AFCI days when you could just tap off one of the SABC's for the dining room, which brings me to another question. Is the "Dining Room" the NEC refers to a formal dining room or is it like so many of my jobs, where you have a kitchen area with maybe a peninsula acting like a dividing line where the table and an overhead fixture are on the other side? I don't see dining room in Article 100.

 

[electricmanscott]

Yep......That's how I did it but it sure was nice pre AFCI days when you could just tap off one of the SABC's for the dining room, which brings me to another question. Is the "Dining Room" the NEC refers to a formal dining room or is it like so many of my jobs, where you have a kitchen area with maybe a peninsula acting like a dividing line where the table and an overhead fixture are on the other side? I don't see dining room in Article 100.

You can still jump off a SABC to feed the DR.

I don't think there is a yes or no to your question that covers all instances.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree with Scott but the dining area is usually a pretty defined space. It includes formal dining rooms as well as breakfast nooks, IMO.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I don't think there is a yes or no to your question that covers all instances.

So basically, it's common sense and AHJ reasoning. Lets see, is it a living room with a table and chairs in it or is it a dining room with a fireplace and big screen TV? I would think anything less than a formal dining room would be out of the realm of enforcement.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would think anything less than a formal dining room would be out of the realm of enforcement.

And you would be wrong. Trust me, esp. if there are plans are marked breakfast nook or something like that, you will need to be on a SABC.

 

[480sparky]

And you would be wrong. Trust me, esp. if there are plans are marked breakfast nook or something like that, you will need to be on a SABC.

So we're back to 'what the room is labeled on the print' argument again?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So we're back to 'what the room is labeled on the print' argument again?

Well, if the plan has a room labeled as a breakfast nook then I think the inspector has every right to enforce that as such.

We had a job in the next city where we had a huge walk in closet. I mean 30' x 20' or so. Cabinets with doors all around the perimeter and a table in the center. They wanted a chandelier there. The inspector said get the plan changed and call it a dressing room and he had no problem with it since all the clothing was inside cabinets. As long as the plans stated closet then the chandelier would be a violation in there eyes.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

And you would be wrong. Trust me, esp. if there are plans are marked breakfast nook or something like that, you will need to be on a SABC.

Plans??? Around here, everything is design build meaning I get a set of 8X10 drawings from the lumber yard that only show the door swings and overall dimensions of the rooms. Then I wire at will..........