Maximum Motor Speed

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sii

Senior Member
Location
Nebraska
A question came up today about the "ideal" speed at which to run a VFD controlled motor. The motor in question will be in a fairly hot environment, around 110* F. I have always tried to specify these motors (and the attached gearbox) so that to achieve the desired speed at the equipment, the motor would run at ~ 90 hz. More cooling air was my thinking. There will be minor running adjustments to the speed but it would usually be set between 80-100 hz.

We are redesigning an old machine with the help (YAY!!:cool:) of the staff engineer; he's a plastics engineer. He is saying that the motor should run at 30-45 hz to avoid overheating the motor.

I guess I'm pretty confident in my way of doing things but I sometimes have trouble matching the technical talk that this guy likes to spout off. Can anyone give me a little advice as to how I can better explain myself? Or maybe (I hope not) tell me why I'm wrong. Thanks.
 
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sii

Senior Member
Location
Nebraska
I also have a second question. Whe looking at the specs for the VFD I noticed that the max frequency is 400 hz. I guess I always knew that but never put any thought into it until today. For a four-pole motor, that's just under 12,000 RPM.

I didn't have much time to look around but I searched around Baldor's site today and the highest maximum RPM I could find for a four-pole, inverter-duty motor was 6000. What type of motor, assuming 1800 base RPM would one need to achieve that speed and what would be an example of an application for it?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I am not an expert at what will happen with the motor windings at higher frequencies but you may also consider that higher speed will result in higher friction in the bearings and result in higher operating temperature. You may have similar issues with gear reducers if that is what you are using - and they generally do not have their own cooling fan like many motors do.

It may be possible that any increased cooling from the higher fan speed will be offset by increased heating from electrical or mechanical sources, and you gain little or no overall improvement.

I think that core and coil sizes need to be sized differently for more efficient operation at high frequencies and insulation may need different specifications also.

If a fan cooled motor, the fan should be sufficient to cool the motor at rated speed and load. Ambient temperature can be a problem sometimes but 110 deg F is not that hot for most motors, many are just warming up at this temperature, and can operate 150 or even 200.

The 90 deg C conductors you supply the motor with are rated 194 deg F, and the motor leads are almost more than 90 deg conductors - they are designed for heat rise because it will happen.

These are just my opinions - the guys that know motors really well will correct me if I am wrong on any of this.
 

76nemo

Senior Member
Location
Ogdensburg, NY
Hogwash. I am not speaking of supply conductors, but the use of the motor itself, at 90Hz. He says cutting it in half will give the motor more expectancy? Hogwallup. 110F or not. Let us hear his technical reasoning.

I must be missing something here :confused:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Isn't speed, torque, and horsepower all dependent on each other?

If you change one of them the result of the others is going to change also?

If you increase speed and want to keep the same horsepower you will surrender torque?

If you increase speed and want to keep the same torque you will surrender horsepower?

If trying to perform one of these with an existing motor that is not oversized for the application, you will not have a motor that can do the job because you are demanding more power from one that is already delivering all it is designed for?

I know this is true for mechanical speed increase such as changing gear ratios or pulley sizes - I would think an increase in frequency in order to increase speed would have some similar problems.

The load needs the same amount of power to drive it at the new speed no matter what method is used to drive it.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
HP is a short hand expression of the relationship between speed and torque. HP = T * RPM / 5250. When you run a motor at its base speed at the rated voltage, you reach the maximum power that motor can develop. The torque output is dependent upon maintaining the proper ratio of voltage and frequency, called the V/Hz ratio. So for example, a 460V 60Hz 4 pole motor is designed to produce a specific amount of torque at 1800RPM (nominal). That speed is determined by the number of poles in the windings and the applied frequency.

A VFD changes the voltage and the frequency together to maintain that same V/Hz ratio so that the motor puts out the same torque regardless of speed. But once the output voltage of the VFD gets to the input voltage, you are done... the VFD cannot create voltage from thin air. That also means of course that as you lower the Hz, you are lowering the HP output of the motor. So for example on your 460V motor, at 30Hz (1/2 speed) you are at 230V output (1/2 voltage) and at 60Hz you are at 460V. If you run the motor beyond 60Hz with the VFD, you have no more voltage to increase with frequency so you are now lowering the V/Hz ratio and you are reducing torque. The HP then at that point remains fixed, so for example a 10HP motor run at 30Hz is putting out 5HP, at 60Hz it is 10HP, but at 90Hz it is still 10HP and at 180Hz it is STILL 10HP. If you apply the basic HP formula to that you will see how much torque is going down.

Some loads, especially centrifugal loads like pumps, have an increase in torque requirements as speed increases. So running the motors above base frequency can be really dangerous because now you need MORE torque and you deliver LESS. Some loads don't really need it though, the inertia is what you are working with, so at higher speeds, the lower torque is less important and/or the motor is selected to operate at that level of torque in the first place. An example might be a spindle drive on a wood shaper. The motor is designed to put out a certain amount of torque at 400Hz, so the VFD is there to provide that 400Hz output.

As to your discussion on whether the 90Hz operation will allow the motor to run cooler because of more cooling, I'm going to disagree without knowing a lot more about the application. If the motor was selected specifically to run at 90Hz and the reduction in torque was accounted for in that selection, then maybe it's fine. But if not, then running at 90Hz would likely be over loading that motor and the slight increase in cooling air (assuming there is any) will not help enough. I say "if any" because not all motor cooling fans will move more air at higher than design speed, some have fairly flat curves. In fact they may even move LESS air! So a safer bet is what your buddy said; select the motor and gear ratio to run in the "bread basket" of motor speed, which is bout 75% and above.
 

GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
I didn't have much time to look around but I searched around Baldor's site today and the highest maximum RPM I could find for a four-pole, inverter-duty motor was 6000. What type of motor, assuming 1800 base RPM would one need to achieve that speed and what would be an example of an application for it?
The 1800 base speed doesn't fit, but in a previous job, we used 2 pole 400 Hz motors in woodworking on routers. In that situation (and 30 years ago) we used MG sets to generate the 400 Hz.

400 Hz motors are probably available in low horsepowers.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
The 1800 base speed doesn't fit, but in a previous job, we used 2 pole 400 Hz motors in woodworking on routers. In that situation (and 30 years ago) we used MG sets to generate the 400 Hz.

400 Hz motors are probably available in low horsepowers.
We make a few motors up to 150 kW or about 200HP that run at 20,000 rpm.
They are used mainly in the machine tools industry.
The motors are usually 6-pole so the drive (we make those too) has to operate at 1,000Hz.

For run of the mill applications, we buy in from a mainstream supplier.
 
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