separate circuit for bathroom gfci

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Sir String

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I'm renovating my new co-op & ran into this tricky situation...

The bathroom has a switch/receptacle combo, which is illegal because there's no neutral there. (They grounded the neutral.)

So I'll remove that & replace it with a switch.

By code, I need a receptacle on a dedicated circuit in a bathroom, right?
However, the only circuit in the room is the lighting circuit. And there's no spare breaker in the panel.

So I can't put a receptacle in. And I can't not have one.
 
charlie b

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
If there is a circuit that serves only the one bathroom, and that has no outlets of any description in any other room, then that one circuit is allowed to power lights, receptacles, fans, and anything else in that one room. Reference 210.11(C)(3), exception.

Welcome to the forum.
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Are you certain that your panel will not accept twin or piggyback breakers? These can be used to get 2 breakers in the space of a single breaker. If the panel allows it then you can do that- you can also add a sub panel but no matter you can't get around the requirement.
 
charlie b

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
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Is there another bathroom in the unit? If so, is there a dedicated circuit for the receptacle in that bathroom? The same rule I cited above allows several bathrooms to share a circuit for receptacles, as long as that circuit has nothing other than bathroom receptacles.
 
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Sir String

Member
Dennis Alwon said:
Are you certain that your panel will not accept twin or piggyback breakers? These can be used to get 2 breakers in the space of a single breaker. If the panel allows it then you can do that- you can also add a sub panel but no matter you can't get around the requirement.
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Thanks Dennis, but I believe twins are illegal in NYC. Something every electrician knows, although I can't quote code. I'll have to look into that.

A sub-panel means taking down a plaster lathe wall. I don't think the co-op board or HPD* would even allow it. Plus it would cost a lot more than I want to spend to have a damn bathroom receptacle.

-------------------------------------------
Charlie, there's a bathroom & a half bath, all fed by the same lighting circuit.




*It's a Mitchell-Lama, so HPD has to approve changes to the apts.
 
2

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
What would I do?

I'd assess the situation and choose the best solution.

If it was my house and I had to pull 120V power from an existing circuit so I could plug in my toothbrush, I would.

If it was a clients house and I had to install a new 20 amp circuit, I would look at the panel and see if I could use a twin breaker. If a twin was not an option because of the manufacturers restrictions, I would consider doubling up a couple of existing lighting circuits, freeing up a space.

If this was not possible I would replace the panel.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
I have been an electrician for 37 years, and I still get stuck sometimes in certain installs, I have done many historically protected buildings, that we couldn't damage any of the building surfaces, and it can get hard when they want all K&T wiring gone, and all new, but to say this to an electrician who is trying to do a code compliant install, after making a remark like this:
If it was my house and I had to pull 120V power from an existing circuit so I could plug in my toothbrush, I would.
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is not right?

I know how hard it can be to find a code compliant way to get things done when other rules also have to be followed, like his housing authority, it can be a bare, so lighten up, he is just asking questions, and some good ones at that.

as far as the question goes the only thing I can think of is combining some lightly loaded circuits as was said, to free up a space, but sometimes there is no code compliant answer when it comes to old buildings that you are not allowed to change much because of other rules besides the NEC.
 
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macmikeman

Senior Member
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Planet macmikeman
I'm with Hurk, you can put the bathroom lights onto another circuit with other lighting, and run some new surface mounted emt or other acceptable wiring method and get another circuit over there somehow. Its the law, and I bet that supercedes the rules that the city historical society or whatever they are called has. That install with no neutral was never allowed so no grandfather excuses.
 
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Sir String

Member
macmikeman said:
I'm with Hurk, you can put the bathroom lights onto another circuit with other lighting, and run some new surface mounted emt or other acceptable wiring method and get another circuit over there somehow.
Click to expand...

All the lighting in the apt is on one circuit. So that's a no go.

Asking around, it seems piggyback breakers are legal. So that's my out.
If they weren't I'd fudge the law & put the bathroom receptacle on the same circuit as the apt lighting.

I just thought it was interesting that I seemed to have two conflicting rules, ruling each other out.

I was really looking for a code work-around like charlie b's post. And while I'm glad I learned something, it didn't help me in this particular situation.
 
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macmikeman

Senior Member
Location
Planet macmikeman
Sir String said:
All the lighting in the apt is on one circuit. So that's a no go.
Click to expand...

Ok, then how about the general use receptacle outlets? Do they have their own circuit? You can put lights on those circuits as well, as long as you do not exceed the capacity of the circuit loading. Keep thinking it through, I bet you will find a working way. And good luck. ;)
 
Split Bolt

Split Bolt

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
Old apartments can be tricky, to say the least! I worked in some that had been updated from fuses to breakers. They had exactly 2 circuits. A 20 amp for the kitchen/dining area receptacles and a 15 amp for everything else! (heat was water radiators common to the buildings) All solid plaster over concrete!
 
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