When the Romex is a little too short... ?

[Jon456]

I think I already know the answer to this (and it's not pretty), but I'll ask the group for advice anyway...

A homeowner wants to move one electrical outlet and two wall sconces. The outlet is used to backlight a piece of hanging decor, and she wants the outlet moved up and over about 6 or 8 inches so that the outlet (and plug) is hidden behind the hanging decor. The sconces are in the bathroom on each side of a mirror and she wants them lowered about 3" so the tops of the fixtures align with the top of the mirror.

I popped off one of the sconces and took a look behind it: there's a 4" round, shallow ceiling pan with a 2" short stub of romex protruding from a knockout at the top.

Clearly there is no way to lower the junction box by 3" without somehow extending the romex. I'll wager there's no excess slack romex behind that box.

I haven't opened the outlet yet, but odds are there is not enough slack wire to move that outlet to where she wants it without again extending the romex.

The only code-compliant solution I can think of is getting to some accessible crawl space under the house or in the attic (depending on the existing runs), installing a junction box there, cutting the old romex, splicing new romex inside that junction box, and then running the new romex to the desired locations. Twice (once for the outlet, once for the bathroom sconces).

Please someone tell me there's an easier way!

 

[LEO2854]

I think I already know the answer to this (and it's not pretty), but I'll ask the group for advice anyway...

A homeowner wants to move one electrical outlet and two wall sconces. The outlet is used to backlight a piece of hanging decor, and she wants the outlet moved up and over about 6 or 8 inches so that the outlet (and plug) is hidden behind the hanging decor. The sconces are in the bathroom on each side of a mirror and she wants them lowered about 3" so the tops of the fixtures align with the top of the mirror.

I popped off one of the sconces and took a look behind it: there's a 4" round, shallow ceiling pan with a 2" short stub of romex protruding from a knockout at the top.

Clearly there is no way to lower the junction box by 3" without somehow extending the romex. I'll wager there's no excess slack romex behind that box.

I haven't opened the outlet yet, but odds are there is not enough slack wire to move that outlet to where she wants it without again extending the romex.

The only code-compliant solution I can think of is getting to some accessible crawl space under the house or in the attic (depending on the existing runs), installing a junction box there, cutting the old romex, splicing new romex inside that junction box, and then running the new romex to the desired locations. Twice (once for the outlet, once for the bathroom sconces).

Please someone tell me there's an easier way!

There is no easy way you can install boxes that are Accessible with covers to cover their origen or you can find the feed before the switch leg and start over ,,,,if the home owner wan't it then they will pay the price to get the job done.

 

[rob12013]

what I love as a new EC is the legal ramifications and so forth of the necessity of permitting this job. as a EC seems like a good thing sometimes to open a can of worms and there being a bigger job to get paid for. maybe the person would rather not have jboxes and you could run back to a close existing jbox.

 

[Jon456]

Actually, I was at the home for a different reason and was on my way out to another appointment when the homeowner showed me those two modifications she wanted down. So I only had time to look briefly before leaving.

The light switch for the sconces would have to be the closest junction box, but that's on the opposite wall. My guess is the romex runs up the wall from the switch, across the ceiling, and down to the sconces. I don't know if there's any access to the ceiling because I didn't have time to study the layout of the house. But this could very well require new romex from the switch box.

As for the outlet, the homeowner wanted the original outlet removed and hole plastered over. But I'll try to convince her to leave it, but to just add another outlet behind the hanging decor so the wire and plug are hidden.

 

[masterinbama]

I have used these before with success.

http://www.tycoelectronics.com/catalog/cinf/en/c/11621/0?PID=65566&RQS=C~11621^M~PPROP^P~^BML~^PG~1^IDS~101056,101057,101058,65566,49659,65567,49660^N~4

 

[macmikeman]

What's on the other side of the wall? Exterior? Slap in an exterior j-box with a wp cover and splice your extension from that. You still are going to have to patch over the old location when you move the lights though. Another way is set your j-boxes down in the vanity cabinet below the mirror (unless its a pedestal sink of course) and fish up from that. Either way, this is an exceptional way to turn a profit if you ask me. Apply the
1/2 day rate of $800 bucks plus materials, and tax. Cowabunga.

 

[LarryFine]

Please someone tell me there's an easier way!

First, I'd remove the box and see if I could loosen or remove the nearest staple, and maybe gain some slack by removing a staple or two in the attic, and gain a few inches like that.

Otherwise, while it may be less than legal, but, if the conductors themselves are long enough, you could "extend" the NM sheath with a few inches of sheath from another piece, and tape where the sheaths abut.

 

[George Stolz]

...while it may be less than legal...

There's a letter around here somewhere from Southwire stating that repairing NM sheathing with electrical tape was acceptable. I need to find that, actually...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Is this it from Gil Moniz and Dave Mercier. You must use a listed repair kit and I think 3M makes it.

When Gil visited us previously, he made a splash by noting that the transparent nylon covering THHN/THWN, while arguably making them sexy compared to THW, is not required to maintain the conductor's dielectric properties. Therefore, if in the course of installation the nylon suffers the odd nick, or unsightly run, or even is scraped off, the conductor is fine so long as the insulation underneath remains intact. Learning this much, we had to have Dave over for more of the story.

Unless conductors are exposed to gasoline or oil, or submerged for an extended period we're talking many months--the nylon covering offers strictly a mechanical protection, Dave explained, with the underlying PVC supplying the dielectric properties as Gil had told us. The nylon actually is stripped away for the UL acceptance test. Therefore, if the nylon is scraped off, but the plastic underneath is intact, an appropriate response usually is "Good; it's done its job," and a green tag.

It's not just the nylon covering on THHN/THWN, we learned, but the sheaths on cable assemblies also often are optional. A cable installer nicked the sheath of a nonmetallic cable installed in a dry indoor location, and responded in a curious way: he turned the cable so the nick faced toward the wall. Not a bad response, Dave opined (while not wholeheartedly endorsing); this way, people glancing at it in passing wouldn't be unnecessarily concerned.
You may detect from this that Dave is quite an engaging speaker; moreover he's one with 19 years' product and Code experience under his belt to give plenty of clout to the information.

Damage is not necessarily limited solely to cable sheaths, of course. If a cable appears damaged, Dave recommends cutting a window in the sheath so you can examine the conductor insulation beneath. If that's good, you can "reinstall the window."

What should you do when you do want to, or need to, repair a cable sheath? Vinyl tape does just fine, Dave said, except in a wet location, and self-sealing mastic tape does even better. Best is a layer of self-fusing tape covered by a layer of vinyl. It even can be used outdoors on UF or SE cable, so long as it is not buried. For that, you need the sealing coverings that come with a Listed underground splice kit.
Art asked whether NM or SE cable repaired in this way still meets the UL standard. Dave commented that it is tough to say. There needs to be a dialogue between the manufacturer, AHJ, and installer. A qualified installer of repair materials should be able to make a repair acceptable to the AHJ, and Southwire's warranty will remain in effect. "Qualified?" Jim Wooten asked. "Someone who has received certified training in using the material, either in an apprenticeship class, or continuing education such as is offered by tape manufacturers." Even damaged Medium Voltage cable remains warrantied, so long as the shielded jacket, which is there for mechanical protection like that of MC, is fixed using a Listed repair kit installed by a qualified person.

We hope to co-sponsor such a class with 3M or Raychem or some such organization.

 

[George Stolz]

Thanks, Dennis! But when did we switch gears to direct burial?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Thanks, Dennis! But when did we switch gears to direct burial?

We didn't. Did you not get past the third sentence? Last paragraph talks of nm & se cable

 

[George Stolz]

We didn't. Did you not get past the third sentence?

LOL

I was referring to your statement:

You must use a listed repair kit and I think 3M makes it.

What should you do when you do want to, or need to, repair a cable sheath? Vinyl tape does just fine, Dave said, except in a wet location, and self-sealing mastic tape does even better.

 

[jetlag]

I think I already know the answer to this (and it's not pretty), but I'll ask the group for advice anyway...

A homeowner wants to move one electrical outlet and two wall sconces. The outlet is used to backlight a piece of hanging decor, and she wants the outlet moved up and over about 6 or 8 inches so that the outlet (and plug) is hidden behind the hanging decor. The sconces are in the bathroom on each side of a mirror and she wants them lowered about 3" so the tops of the fixtures align with the top of the mirror.

I popped off one of the sconces and took a look behind it: there's a 4" round, shallow ceiling pan with a 2" short stub of romex protruding from a knockout at the top.

Clearly there is no way to lower the junction box by 3" without somehow extending the romex. I'll wager there's no excess slack romex behind that box.

I haven't opened the outlet yet, but odds are there is not enough slack wire to move that outlet to where she wants it without again extending the romex.

The only code-compliant solution I can think of is getting to some accessible crawl space under the house or in the attic (depending on the existing runs), installing a junction box there, cutting the old romex, splicing new romex inside that junction box, and then running the new romex to the desired locations. Twice (once for the outlet, once for the bathroom sconces).

Please someone tell me there's an easier way!

Since the outlet is high on the wall most likely was added later an fished in wall , that way no staples , can tell by if its a remodel box or somehow screwed from inside the outlet. If there is good chance some slack can pull , if not go in attic or under and set 2 j boxes cut wire add a piece wire couple ft long in one box , go to second box and connect to other cut wire. The baths may be the same . If wire is stapled in wall this wont work. She is awful ticky if wont allow you use blank covers , if I understand right she is going to holes in the wall to try to repair and paint to match. If I was there I could find a way, if this is partition wall she might not mind the blank covers on the other side , in which case cut in remodeling box where wire will reach, you might have to use that hole to get a staple out get the wire in and run a jumper back over to desired location.

 

[Jon456]

I have used these before with success.

http://www.tycoelectronics.com/catalog/cinf/en/c/11621/0?PID=65566&RQS=C~11621^M~PPROP^P~^BML~^PG~1^IDS~101056,101057,101058,65566,49659,65567,49660^N~4

Thanks! This looks like it might just be the ticket.

Just to be sure, are the splice connectors listed for use in permanent installations inside an enclosed wall? Or must the wire be exposed and accessible?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Thanks! This looks like it might just be the ticket.

Just to be sure, are the splice connectors listed for use in permanent installations inside an enclosed wall? Or must the wire be exposed and accessible?

I think you need access to those units.

334.30

(C) Wiring Device Without a Separate Outlet Box.​

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A wiring device identified for the use, without a separate outlet box, and incorporating an integral cable clamp shall be permitted where the cable is secured in place at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (41⁄2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.)
from the wiring device wall opening, and there shall be at least a 300 mm (12 in.) loop of unbroken cable or 150 mm (6 in.) of a cable end available on the interior side of the finished wall to permit replacement.​

 

[Dennis Alwon]

After reading another thread I realized I had the wrong article. I think you can use them concealed but I sure wouldn't want to.

(B) Devices of Insulating Material. Switch, outlet, and tap devices of insulating material shall be permitted to be used without boxes in exposed cable wiring and for rewiring in existing buildings where the cable is concealed and fished. Openings in such devices shall form a close fit around the outer covering of the cable, and the device shall
fully enclose the part of the cable from which any part of the covering has been removed. Where connections to conductors are by binding-screw terminals, there shall be available as many terminals as conductors.

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