Wind Turbine Voltages?

[tedge]

Real studies in our country are hard to find, at least with the time I have to look.

Here is what seems to be a legit study (even though it is from an anti-wind site)taking into account the experiences of a few countries:

http://www.wind-watch.org/documents/wp-content/uploads/victoria-emissions.pdf

I haven't read all of it yet, but pages 10-11 talk about the observed efficiencies of large scale wind projects. It's pretty damning stuff.

There seems to be lots of studies about Denmark's experiences that show more of the same.

If you can point me to supportive stuff I'll listen.

 

[tedge]

mpross,

no worries man. I didn't really mean for this to get so dragged out either.

Are the projects you've worked on in mountainous areas, or large open areas?

Can you explain pumped storage?

 

[dereckbc]

Can you explain pumped storage?

Pumped storage is taking excess generation capacity and pumping water back up into a lake for release later through hydro generators. Problem is here in the US, it has already been done decades ago and only represent a small fraction of total generation capacity. There simply is not any more land or water left for it. In Oklahoma where I grew up they call them Pump Back lakes, and those were built out during the Great Depression with WPA funds under the Government operated electric utility called Grand River Dam Authority along the Grand River in North East Oklahoma.

 

[zog]

Hello GAR!

I worked on a couple of the wind projects in the thumb area. I just want to say that the "Thumb" is one of my favorite areas in the whole country, and I have seen quite a bit of the country! Good people and good food!

Take a look at the Department of Energy's EIA website for pumped storage capacity and you will see that it is not a major player in the nation's expected growth (or currently installed technology for that matter) in generation. It is only a small pecentile in capacity.

In Iowa missing Michigan,
Matt

I did commisioning in Ubly, huge wind farm up there.

In NC, Not missing MI.

 

[zog]

Pumped storage is taking excess generation capacity and pumping water back up into a lake for release later through hydro generators. Problem is here in the US, it has already been done decades ago and only represent a small fraction of total generation capacity. There simply is not any more land or water left for it. In Oklahoma where I grew up they call them Pump Back lakes, and those were built out during the Great Depression with WPA funds under the Government operated electric utility called Grand River Dam Authority along the Grand River in North East Oklahoma.

Let me expand on that a little, the key is to take advantage of cheaper energy (at night) and use it to pump water "up" to a tank (or other storage place), then when energy is expensive (mid-day), let it flow "down" and turn a TG.

Old school smart grid

 

[gar]

100922-0800 EST

From this morning's SME (Society of Manufacturing Engineers) daily briefing:

GM, ABB Partner To Develop Secondary Use For Spent EV Batteries.
The Raleigh (NC) News & Observer (9/22, Murawski) reports, "ABB, maker of heavy-duty electrical equipment, will work with General Motors to develop secondary uses for electric car batteries." According to a spokesman, "ABB's portion of the work will be handled in its research center at N.C. State University's Centennial Campus. ... The joint research project between ABB and the Detroit maker of the Chevy Volt will look at ways to configure spent auto batteries so that they can store energy from solar farms and wind farms, said Sandeep Bala, an ABB research engineer in Raleigh."

 

[dereckbc]

Zog it has been a while since I ran the numbers on Pump Back storage, and I am too lazy to do it again, but something on the order of a water tank about the size a city would use only yields only couple of meager Kwh, and is very inefficient. To have commercial yields would take a lake. The concept works pretty good when the source power is hydro, and you use the unused capacity to pump water back up into the lake when generating.

However if the source fuel is say solar, wind, coal, NG, or uranium, then it becomes like a hydrogen economy. The product is a high multiple of the source fuel and will be in competition with the source fuel at a much higher price.

The only real solution to renewable energy IMHO and the majority of the science and engineering community is to develop a large scale storage battery system which does not exist as of yet, but holds the most promise. There is a huge amount of money, both private and public funds being poured into R&D of such a battery. Best bet is a lithium polymer chemistry. Right now a USA company called A123 Systems has a prototype in testing that is suppose to have a density of 250 wh/kg, charge/discharge rate of 5C, and a cycle life of 10,000 at 80% DOD. It is being developed for the electric vehicle market and if successful would be a great candidate for RE applications. Such a battery would mean you could have an EV with a range of 300 miles with all the bells and whistles, recharge times as fast as 15 to 20 minutes, and last 20+ years. With a vehicle efficiency of 200 wh/mile and 12 cents per Kwh we are looking at a fuel cost of about 3-cents per mile. I think a lot of us here will see that come true in our lifetime.

 

[dbuckley]

Let me expand on that a little, the key is to take advantage of cheaper energy (at night) and use it to pump water "up" to a tank (or other storage place), then when energy is expensive (mid-day), let it flow "down" and turn a TG.

Yonks ago I visited the Dinorwig pumped storage facility. Although it was originally built to make use of the excess of base load capacity as you note, it is now used as a rapid delivery plant, as it can go from zero to 1.8GW in 16 seconds.

These plants are the only way we have to store electricity on any kind of a scale.

 

[GeorgeB]

100921-2049 EST

I am told that pumped storage is expensive. I am also told that it is relatively efficient.

.

relative is ... relative. If you can keep a nuclear unit at 100% by pumping water uphill, there are system efficiencies. Efficient ... alone, no. AFAIK, Duke Energy only has one pumped storage "system", Bad Creek to/from Jocassee, Jocassee to/from Keowee. Jocassee is a pretty good sized reservoir and is in local news with the new pump rotor(s) being installed to improve efficiency.

 

[Split Bolt]

I imagine the Manhattan Project had a little to do with nuclear development. Coal has been used since before there were governments to tax and subsidize anything. The dangers of both are over stated in my opinion. Not that this matters.

Zog and dereckbc got it right in posts 2 and 3.
Reality is, you've got two sources of energy able to meet the demand of any industrial economy- hydrocarbon and nuclear. China and Mexico are going to use coal and there power plants pollute more than ours. Europe and India are going nuclear.

The Stone Age didn't end due to a lack of rocks. Subsidizing the use of wind won't help it overcome it's shortcomings.

Sorry Dave, I must respectfully disagree with your attitude. So you are saying we should just give up and go with what we've got, rather than try to develop better methods? With that attitude, we would have not have had any of the technologies that we enjoy today!

 

[ActionDave]

So you are saying we should just give up and go with what we've got, rather than try to develop better methods?

No I am not. I am saying that wind energy, in its present stage of development, is not better than what
we've got.

With that attitude, we would have not have had any of the technologies that we enjoy today!

I look forward to each new improvement in energy production while staying realistic about what is available now and how to best use ,and better the use of, what is available to meet the needs of today.

 

[zog]

Zog it has been a while since I ran the numbers on Pump Back storage, and I am too lazy to do it again, but something on the order of a water tank about the size a city would use only yields only couple of meager Kwh, and is very inefficient.

.

I was refering to a tank as more of a model than as a practical application.