branch circuit extensions

[elecmen]

Hi, I am looking for the requirements for extensions to existing branch circuits. These are 2 wire branch circuits(no ground). I have looked in article 210 and didn't see anything on this. Can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks

 

[augie47]

You might look at 250.130(C) and see if that is applicable to your situation.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Hi, I am looking for the requirements for extensions to existing branch circuits. These are 2 wire branch circuits(no ground). I have looked in article 210 and didn't see anything on this. Can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks

You cannot extend 2 wire circuis without adding an egc. Any extension of a circuit must meet todays code.

 

[LEO2854]

Hi, I am looking for the requirements for extensions to existing branch circuits. These are 2 wire branch circuits(no ground). I have looked in article 210 and didn't see anything on this. Can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks

What are you trying to do?

 

[elecmen]

I was trying to do what Dennis said. I thought It was acceptable to put a GFCI receptacle where the old and new join and are extended and not use the ground wire on the new part of the extension.

 

[480sparky]

GFCI are only for receptacle replacement.

Adding to existing circuits requires a ground.

 

[LEO2854]

I was trying to do what Dennis said. I thought It was acceptable to put a GFCI receptacle where the old and new join and are extended and not use the ground wire on the new part of the extension.

you do not say what state you are from.
In Massachusetts 230.130C Is i illegal in the 2008 mass Electrical code you cannot replace two prong outlets with GFCI's we can only install new two prong outlets.
I think you would be better of running a new circuit,and you will make more money that way:grin:

 

[glene77is]

You might look at 250.130(C) and see if that is applicable to your situation.

I have always used GFCI circuit breakers,
or GFCI recepticals for a local room extension.

You can work your way through these cites:

ECG & two wire cable: 250.130(C)

382.10 Uses Permitted. Nonmetallic extensions shall be
permitted only in accordance with 382.10(A), (B), and (C).
(A) From an Existing Outlet. The extension shall be from
an existing outlet on a 15- or 20-ampere branch circuit.
Where a concealable nonmetallic extension originates from
a non?grounding-type receptacle, the installation shall comply
with 250.130(C), 406.3(D)(3)(b), or 406.3(D)(3)(c).

382.12 Uses Not Permitted.
Nonmetallic extensions shall not be used as follows:
(1) In unfinished basements, attics, or roof spaces
(2)
(3)
(4) Where run through a floor or partition,
or outside the room in which it originates

 

[glene77is]

I think you would be better of running a new circuit,
and you will make more money that way:grin:

Leo,
Add to that, it will be a better service to the customer.
Maybe add another circuit for the overloaded kitchen.
Did I mention to drop an outside receptical ? Better service again.

 

[ofourcobra]

what about extending 2 wire branch circuits when changing a panel ?only asking cause I am doing a service next week and alot of the bx must be extended and I was going to box them in a can and use romex to extend

 

[Dennis Alwon]

what about extending 2 wire branch circuits when changing a panel ?only asking cause I am doing a service next week and alot of the bx must be extended and I was going to box them in a can and use romex to extend

I would ask the AHJ but IMO, that is not really an extension of the circuit. You are not adding any outlets, etc. Also BX is a ground so you are good. Some AHJ's will make you add AFCI-- I think that is BS.

 

[LEO2854]

I would ask the AHJ but IMO, that is not really an extension of the circuit. You are not adding any outlets, etc. Also BX is a ground so you are good. Some AHJ's will make you add AFCI-- I think that is BS.

I agree if you have BX just install a 10/32 in the box and your good:grin:
And unless your running a new circuit you don't need an AFCI.

 

[iwire]

Is i illegal in the 2008 mass Electrical code you cannot replace two prong outlets with GFCI's we can only install new two prong outlets.

Leo, can you find that in the MA amendments?

I can't.

 

[LEO2854]

Leo, can you find that in the MA amendments?

I can't.

this is intersting:-?
On page 6 of MA amendments 250.130(C) Deleate this subsection,,,that is how it appears in the 2008 and the 2005 ,,I am missing my 2002 and 1999. in the 1996 the wording can be found on page 10 in 250-50a

The ma amenments have change over the years on this subject and in the last two codes they just deleate 250.130(C) so now i am so not sure what the mass code is trying tell us .I know that in the past mass code they wanted us to replace two prong outlets with new two prong outlets when no ground is available.

so if you can find that in your old code books that would help

 

[iwire]

this is intersting:-?
On page 6 of MA amendments 250.130(C) Deleate this subsection,,,that is how it appears in the 2008 and the 2005 ,,I am missing my 2002 and 1999. in the 1996 the wording can be found on page 10 in 250-50a

The ma amenments have change over the years on this subject and in the last two codes they just deleate 250.130(C) so now i am so not sure what the mass code is trying tell us .I know that in the past mass code they wanted us to replace two prong outlets with new two prong outlets when no ground is available.

so if you can find that in your old code books that would help

Yes, the change in 250.130(C) is there but that section has nothing at all to do with this.

Is i illegal in the 2008 mass Electrical code you cannot replace two prong outlets with GFCI's we can only install new two prong outlets.

We can replace two prong outlets with GFCI's per the rules in 406.3(D) which are unchanged in MA.

 

[M. D.]

I think Massachusetts deleted 250.130(c) because when water lines were no longer required to electrically continuous or made so ,.beyond 5' feet of inside water lines are now not part of the electrode system ,..and we now would have to fish the EGC to the grounding terminal or the electrode/cond. they figured 'heck , if your gonna fish an equipment ground you might as well fish a new cable and be done with it'.. keep in mind this is almost exclusive to residential wiring.
And yes GFCI can be used to replace a two wire, even in Massachusetts

 

[ofourcobra]

So I shouldn't have a problem extending the bx with new romex

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So I shouldn't have a problem extending the bx with new romex

Did you read posts #11 & #12. IMO, you should not have an issue but I am not the inspector and he is the only one that can tell you what he commands.

 

[LEO2854]

Yes, the change in 250.130(C) is there but that section has nothing at all to do with this.





We can replace two prong outlets with GFCI's per the rules in 406.3(D) which are unchanged in MA.

Thanks iwire I can see that now 406.3 (D) so we can use GFCI's

 

[M. D.]

I agree if you have BX just install a 10/32 in the box and your good:grin:
And unless your running a new circuit you don't need an AFCI.

I don't mean to be a wet blanket but I'm not so sure that old A.C. (B.X.) cable without the bonding strap meets the 250.118 requirement . I was always told that it was this type of

EC&M
Interlocked Type AC cable is manufactured with an internal bonding strip that is in direct contact with the interlocked metal armor. The combination of the bonding strip and the interlocked metal armor makes the cable suitable as an effective ground-fault current path [320.108].