Bonding

[DIVERSE63109@YAHOO.COM]

I poured a 50 BY 50 concrete splash pad and did not install bonding. The pad has no rebar or wire mesh.

The pad has no electric in it. The water features that are in the pad are located and controlled from the pump house (electric pump, valves) .

Is it necessary to have this splash pad bonded? The owner wants me to redo it !!!!

I need overwhelming evidence from the NEC to get out of this.

The 2nd option is retro fit the pad, which i wanted to use the saw cut joints to install 8 awg copper wire to the metal water features and they say it has to have a 12 by 12 grid.

Keep in mind this is a splash pad that drains immediately.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

What is a splash pad?

 

[DIVERSE63109@YAHOO.COM]

Bonding issue

Bonding issue

A splash pad is a concrete pad that has a few water features in it that spray water up in the air. the water goes directly into a drain so an accumulation of water does not occur. if you send my your email or tell me how to insert an attachment i will forward a picture of it to you.

Thanks very much for your help.

 

[jxofaltrds]

What is a splash pad?

Dennis

I am guessing it may be something like this here in Dublin Ohio.

http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/khDxcx8gZhI2lxE8ejjj6A?select=OxDd70lbqKqwO8-ZsFSYJg

 

[bob]

I has to be bonded if it is likely to become energized. Can this happen?

 

[bphgravity]

1. Consult the local AHJ.
2. Hire a licensed PE / EE.
3. Hire a licensed EC.

(SEE THE FORUM RULES)

 

[jxofaltrds]

This is a good one.

I am leaning toward bonding but have no definitive code to cite.

I think it is a fountain but people will be 'wading' in it. So I can not identify it per 680.2.

 

[K8MHZ]

This is a good one.

I am leaning toward bonding but have no definitive code to cite.

I think it is a fountain but people will be 'wading' in it. So I can not identify it per 680.2.

Why would this be any different than a drive way or a parking lot that gets wet from the sprinklers so long as there is no electrical wiring involved?

The pad has no electric in it.

Thus, how is this an NEC issue anyway?

Oh, and look at the scope of 680. Applies to ELECTRICAL wiring for and equipment in.......and to metallic axillary equipment....

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This is a good one.

I am leaning toward bonding but have no definitive code to cite.

I think it is a fountain but people will be 'wading' in it. So I can not identify it per 680.2.

There is no accumulation of water. I would not worry about it. Seems no different than a rainfall on a concrete sidewalk.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Why would this be any different than a drive way or a parking lot that gets wet from the sprinklers so long as there is no electrical wiring involved?



Thus, how is this an NEC issue anyway?

Oh, and look at the scope of 680. Applies to ELECTRICAL wiring for and equipment in.......and to metallic axillary equipment....

Most of these have pumps involved. Pump - electricity.

The pumps are required per manufacturer to be GFCI protected.

I do not know what the correct answer is but I do think that this is a good question.

 

[jxofaltrds]

There is no accumulation of water. I would not worry about it. Seems no different than a rainfall on a concrete sidewalk.

I could say the same thing around a hot tub.

 

[petersonra]

I poured a 50 BY 50 concrete splash pad and did not install bonding. The pad has no rebar or wire mesh.

The pad has no electric in it. The water features that are in the pad are located and controlled from the pump house (electric pump, valves) .

Is it necessary to have this splash pad bonded? The owner wants me to redo it !!!!

I need overwhelming evidence from the NEC to get out of this.

The 2nd option is retro fit the pad, which i wanted to use the saw cut joints to install 8 awg copper wire to the metal water features and they say it has to have a 12 by 12 grid.

Keep in mind this is a splash pad that drains immediately.

I don't think how long the water stays or whether there is electricity present is an issue.

What is at issue is whether the code requires equipotential bonding for this installation. Article 680 would appear to be on point.

The closest thing it comes to is a fountain, so section V might apply.

680.50 says it has to comply with section I.

It also says if it is not using water in common with a pool it does not have to comply with section II.

This appears to be the meat.

680.53 Bonding. All metal piping systems associated with
the fountain shall be bonded to the equipment grounding
conductor of the branch circuit supplying the fountain.
No branch circuit so how could this apply?
FPN: See 250.122 for sizing of these conductors.
680.54 Grounding. The following equipment shall be
grounded:
(1) All electrical equipment located within the fountain or
within 1.5 m (5 ft) of the inside wall of the fountain
No electrical equipment so DNA.
(2) All electrical equipment associated with the recirculating
system of the fountain
No recirc so DNA.
(3) Panelboards that are not part of the service equipment
and that supply any electrical equipment associated
with the fountain
DNA
680.55 Methods of Grounding.
(A) Applied Provisions. The provisions of 680.21(A),
680.23(B)(3), 680.23(F)(1) and (F)(2), 680.24(F), and 680.25
shall apply.

I don't see anything that requires an equipotential grid UNLESS the water you are using comes from or goes to a pool.

Most of these have pumps involved. Pump - electricity.

The pumps are required per manufacturer to be GFCI protected.

I do not know what the correct answer is but I do think that this is a good question.

He said the pumps are located remotely.

 

[K8MHZ]

Most of these have pumps involved. Pump - electricity.

The pumps are required per manufacturer to be GFCI protected.

I do not know what the correct answer is but I do think that this is a good question.

Indeed, but the pumps are somewhere else. I can see how the pad the pumps are on needs to be bonded to the pumps and to the system that supplies them.

What I do NOT understand is how anyone thinks that connecting a ground rod to a re-bar will make a difference. The BEST connection to ground is already there, many square feet of direct surface contact, and a couple puny rods stuck in the earth isn't going to make squat of a difference.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I could say the same thing around a hot tub.

You would just to get an argument going.

 

[K8MHZ]

I could say the same thing around a hot tub.

Indeed you could, however it is moot as it does not negate the fact that electricity is present in close proximity with the slab at the hot tub, whereas it is not at the splash pad (as I understand) and that is, to me, the big difference.

 

[jxofaltrds]

You would just to get an argument going.

Indeed you could, however it is moot as it does not negate the fact that electricity is present in close proximity with the slab at the hot tub, whereas it is not at the splash pad (as I understand) and that is, to me, the big difference.

Where is the pump that returns the water?

If remote then it may not be a problem.

If next to the pad then maybe.

I do not know.

Would http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=129463 make a difference?

 

[K8MHZ]

Where is the pump that returns the water?

If remote then it may not be a problem.

If next to the pad then maybe.

I do not know.

Would http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=129463 make a difference?

To me there would be a big difference between a pump and all associated electrical being 40 feet away from the slash pad vs. 4 feet.

I may have incorrectly read too much into the OP and just made the assumption that the pump, etc., was a distance away from the splash pad.

 

[hurk27]

To me there would be a big difference between a pump and all associated electrical being 40 feet away from the slash pad vs. 4 feet.

I may have incorrectly read too much into the OP and just made the assumption that the pump, etc., was a distance away from the splash pad.

I agree if the pumps are remote I.E. more then 5' away then this would not be any different then a sprinkler system fed from a well pump, (most are around here) but if this pump is closer then 5' then I would say 680 kicks in.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I agree if the pumps are remote I.E. more then 5' away then this would not be any different then a sprinkler system fed from a well pump, (most are around here) but if this pump is closer then 5' then I would say 680 kicks in.

I agree that it should but what do we reference?

 

[hurk27]

I agree that it should but what do we reference?

Measuring tape?


Kidding
680.54 is about as close as I can get?