What needs to be ul listed?

[Front_line]

I sell/install mass notification products, sometimes they connect to line voltage, sometimes they use solar. With that being said, my systems are 100% battery driven, only using the utility or solar to trickle charge the batteries. When using line voltage utility to power the battery charger, our engineers obtain UL listing. When only using solar (no connection to the electrical grid) to trickle charge the battery, they do not obtain UL listing. These are low voltage circuits entirely. All bonding, overcurrent protection and so on is 110% done to code when installed. However, a MN electrical inspector recently made us pull a permit, and will not pass until it is UL listed. Nobody in the industry with standalone seperatly derived solar power systems get UL listing. IE: road side lighting, automotive battery chargers, marine chargers and so on. Under what grounds does something need to be UL listed when no utility is connected and the system runs only off batteries? AHJ deemed it necessary in MN and now what is the rest of the world going to do? any help or direction greatly appreciated.

 

[renosteinke]

I think you need to sit down with the local UL rep for their sales pitch.

UL has at least two distinct services of interest to you.

The first is where UL lists various equipment to specific standards. This is the "UL lable" that most folks think of.

The other involved UL allowing certain shops / businesses to apply the UL mark to their work. For example, there are UL-listed "panel shops" and "sign shops." There are also programs where UL will certify installed alarm systems.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Article 690 has this to say. IMO, you would need UL or some third party listing.

ARTICLE 690 Solar Photovoltaic Systems
I. General
690.1 Scope.
The provisions of this article apply to solar photovoltaic electrical energy systems, including the array circuit(s), inverter(s), and controller(s) for such systems. [See Figure 690.1(A) and Figure 690.1(B).] Solar photovoltaic systems covered by this article may be interactive with other electrical power production sources or stand-alone, with or without electrical energy storage such as batteries. These systems may have ac or dc output for utilization.

110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

 

[Front_line]

Thank you for the info. The only question I left out was what is considered then a communication device? Which the code does not cover. All of our equipment has a radio inside to activate, and everything else is low-voltage electronic, no mechanical moving parts like the older cold war era civil defense sirens. OHSA and FCC cover communication devices as far as I know but there is no clear cut answer out there, any help again would be appreciated.

 

[hurk27]

A while back I hit a road block when I questioned the installation of tornado sirens in our area, these are mostly fed via utility or off government buildings.

The problem I run into was the installers was putting the maintenance disconnect down at ground level, about 6' off the ground, where any devious kid can just switch it off, there is no locks on them, and I went all the way to state level, and was told they had no jurisdiction because they were implemented into law by legislation, which meant hands off for local enforcement also.
I would presume these would be considered as a life safety device, and if as such they need the maintenance disconnect up at the control box, not down where kids can shut them off, or at least a lock on them.

I would think the bodies in interest who has required them would also require them to meet some kind of NTRL listing if they are considered a life safety device, no different from a fire pump?

 

[hurk27]

If these are under a goverment contract they may or may not be under the NEC, it would be up to the AHJ and or the goverment of the state you are installing them in.

 

[mhffan]

So far as I know, the electrical products that work at a relative high input voltage that would be very harmful to people need to be UL listed. But some specified elec toys need to be, too, since they will be sold for childen.

 

[Jraef]

The NEC is not the final authority on whether or not NRTL listing is or is not required, that is usually done state-by-state or even by local city codes in some instances. The important lesson to be learned here is that no matter what the rest of the county is or is not doing, it's irrelevant. The AHJ IS the A.H.J.! He can require it if he interprets the local codes in that way. You can present an argument, but good luck with that.

 

[Smart $]

... any help or direction greatly appreciated.

Read this...

690.4 Installation.

...

(D) Equipment. Inverters, motor generators, photovoltaic
modules, photovoltaic panels, ac photovoltaic modules,
source-circuit combiners, and charge controllers intended
for use in photovoltaic power systems shall be identified
and listed for the application.

 

[yired29]

Also look at:
110.2 Approval
The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this code shall be acceptable only if approved.
Article 100 Approved
Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.

 

[kc8dxx]

Also look at:
110.2 Approval
The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this code shall be acceptable only if approved.
Article 100 Approved
Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.

Those two sentances cause more uncertainty ...

 

[Cmdr_Suds]

Look at UL Standard 1741 - Standard for Inverters, Converters, Controllers and Interconnection System Equipment for Use With Distributed Energy Resources.

I think this is the standard that you should be listing you system to.

 

[DM2-Inc]

UL 2572 Control and Communication Units for Mass Notification Systems

UL 2572 Control and Communication Units for Mass Notification Systems

If you're talking about the system which controls the "Mass Notification System", you should try UL 2572 CONTROL AND COMMUNICATION UNITS FOR MASS NOTIFICATION SYSTEMS. The above link is to the "SCOPE" page from UL, and advises that the following standards are also involved:

1. UL 464 - Audible Signal Appliances
2. UL 1971 - Signaling Devices for the Hearing Impaired
3. UL 1638 - Visual Signaling Appliances - Private Mode Emergency and General Utility Signaling

In the absence of a test method, OSHA does provide an "OUT" in 29 CFR 1910.155(3), but I'm not too sure it would apply as this section is "Subpart L - Fire Protection". What it does say is:

(3) Approved means acceptable to the Assistant Secretary under the following criteria:

(i) If it is accepted, or certified, or listed, or labeled or otherwise determined to be safe by a nationally recognized testing laboratory; or
(ii) With respect to an installation or equipment of a kind which no nationally recognized testing laboratory accepts, certifies, lists, labels, or determines to be safe, if it is inspected or tested by another Federal agency and found in compliance with the provisions of the applicable National Fire Protection Association Fire Code; or
(iii) With respect to custom-made equipment or related installations which are designed, fabricated for, and intended for use by its manufacturer on the basis of test data which the employer keeps and makes available for inspection to the Assistant Secretary.​

You should understand that Fed OSHA is the "Minimum" requirement. While I have yet to see one of the "State OSHA's" have more stringent requirements, the same can't be said for State, and Local AHJ's.

As someone else mentioned previously, if you're involved with a Government project, they may have different rules.