Violations?

[mkgrady]

I have found a panel in a home that I think have code violations. I really stink at finding things in the code and I'm looking for some help. Here goes:

What code section is violated when one manufactures CB are used in another brand?

What code section is violated when two circuits are put under one CB? This has been done with numerous 15 amp circuits where the electrician was too lazy to add a subpanel, and it was done where a 2 pole 15 amp breaker is being used to feed two different air handlers. They only draw a few amps but I thought they neeeded their own brach circuit.

Is there a code violation when each circuits grounded and grounding conductor are under the same terminal?

What code section is violated when a wires strands are split and put under two terminals?

What code section is violated when a 20 amp CB is used on a 15 amp wire that is not a motor load?

 

[petersonra]

I have found a panel in a home that I think have code violations. I really stink at finding things in the code and I'm looking for some help. Here goes:

What code section is violated when one manufactures CB are used in another brand?

Maybe none. As long as they are UL listed for that panelboard it is not an issue.

What code section is violated when two circuits are put under one CB? This has been done with numerous 15 amp circuits where the electrician was too lazy to add a subpanel, and it was done where a 2 pole 15 amp breaker is being used to feed two different air handlers. They only draw a few amps but I thought they neeeded their own brach circuit.

Not an issue as long as the load calculations for the circuits do not exceed the Cb rating, or 80% of the CB rating if a continuous load.

Is there a code violation when each circuits grounded and grounding conductor are under the same terminal?

Yes. Only one neutral can be put on each terminal.

What code section is violated when a wires strands are split and put under two terminals?

None as far as I know. Unless the manufacturer's instructions say not to do this.

What code section is violated when a 20 amp CB is used on a 15 amp wire that is not a motor load?

By 15A wire do you mean a #14 wire? See 240.4(D).

 

[raider1]

I have found a panel in a home that I think have code violations. I really stink at finding things in the code and I'm looking for some help. Here goes:

What code section is violated when one manufactures CB are used in another brand?

110.3(B) the installation instructions from the panel will specify what breakers are acceptable to be installed in the panel. (Now lets not talk about certified breakers.:roll

What code section is violated when two circuits are put under one CB? This has been done with numerous 15 amp circuits where the electrician was too lazy to add a subpanel, and it was done where a 2 pole 15 amp breaker is being used to feed two different air handlers. They only draw a few amps but I thought they neeeded their own brach circuit.

110.14(A) unless the terminals of the breaker are listed for more than 1 conductor. If the circuits have little load then you can just pigtail the circuits together and run a single wire to the breaker.

Is there a code violation when each circuits grounded and grounding conductor are under the same terminal?

408.41, prior to this being introducted into the code it was a listing requirement from the UL whitebook.

What code section is violated when a wires strands are split and put under two terminals?

110.14(A) the terminal must be suitable for the size of wire terminating on it.

What code section is violated when a 20 amp CB is used on a 15 amp wire that is not a motor load?

240.4(D)

Chris

 

[jxofaltrds]

I have found a panel in a home that I think have code violations. I really stink at finding things in the code and I'm looking for some help. Here goes:

What code section is violated when one manufactures CB are used in another brand?

What code section is violated when two circuits are put under one CB? This has been done with numerous 15 amp circuits where the electrician was too lazy to add a subpanel, and it was done where a 2 pole 15 amp breaker is being used to feed two different air handlers. They only draw a few amps but I thought they neeeded their own brach circuit.

Is there a code violation when each circuits grounded and grounding conductor are under the same terminal?

What code section is violated when a wires strands are split and put under two terminals?

What code section is violated when a 20 amp CB is used on a 15 amp wire that is not a motor load?

Are you there to fix a problem(s) or offer an opinion?

 

[mkgrady]

Are you there to fix a problem(s) or offer an opinion?

For now it is to offer opinion to a friend that has had these things listed on a home inspection report. Later it will be to fix it if he buys the place.

 

[mkgrady]

110.3(B) the installation instructions from the panel will specify what breakers are acceptable to be installed in the panel. (Now lets not talk about certified breakers.:roll



110.14(A) unless the terminals of the breaker are listed for more than 1 conductor. If the circuits have little load then you can just pigtail the circuits together and run a single wire to the breaker.



408.41, prior to this being introducted into the code it was a listing requirement from the UL whitebook.



110.14(A) the terminal must be suitable for the size of wire terminating on it.



240.4(D)

Chris

Thanks Chris, very helpful.

 

[raider1]

Thanks Chris, very helpful.

Your welcome.

Chris

 

[petersonra]

110.14(A) the terminal must be suitable for the size of wire terminating on it.

I looked in 110.14(A) and I don't see where it actually says this.

 

[raider1]

I looked in 110.14(A) and I don't see where it actually says this.

I was going from memory, and it does not specifically say that the terminal must be listed for the size of the wire terminated to it.

110.3(B) would come into play if the terminal was listed and the listing did not specify the size of wire you were trying to terminate. For example if the terminal said #14 through #6 and you split a #2 into 2 of the terminals I would say that that install violated the listing.

Chris

 

[jxofaltrds]

For now it is to offer opinion to a friend that has had these things listed on a home inspection report. Later it will be to fix it if he buys the place.

This is going to sound mean. Wish I could sugar-coated it but---

Maybe the HI should explain the problems to you, the Master Electrician.

 

[Real_Bostonian]

MK - without really answering your questions specifically - some of those items may not have been violations at the time of install - therefore not really code violations today (unless installed today). Example would be separating the nuetral & grounds at the main - I don't think that was a code violation until recently (at the very least a common trade practice due to the fact manufacturers didn't provide ground buses with enough capacity to separate them back in the late 20th Century).

I think it is good a home inspector points this out but maybe as "FYI" only.

 

[mkgrady]

This is going to sound mean. Wish I could sugar-coated it but---

Maybe the HI should explain the problems to you, the Master Electrician.

I can't tell if you are trying to insult me or not, but I suspect you are. Please correct me if I am wrong. Either way I don't understand your remarks.

I believe what the HI has declared to be problems are problems. I understand what the problems are I just don't know what code sections are violated. What do you expect the HI could expalin to me?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

UL says all manufacturer's instructions are 110.3(B) instructions.

The instructions provided with all panels specify the use of breakers made by them.

UL has classified breakers and tells us they can be used in any panel that they have been classified for use in.

One of the two statements from UL must be wrong as they are in conflict with each other.

 

[raider1]

UL says all manufacturer's instructions are 110.3(B) instructions.

The instructions provided with all panels specify the use of breakers made by them.

UL has classified breakers and tells us they can be used in any panel that they have been classified for use in.

One of the two statements from UL must be wrong as they are in conflict with each other.

Yep that is what I was alluding to when I said certified breakers in my earlier post I had meant to say classified breakers.

Chris

 

[K8MHZ]

110.14(A) the terminal must be suitable for the size of wire terminating on it.

It says nothing of the sort, at least in the 2005 book, which we are on for residential.

I see grounding conductors split and terminated in two adjacent holes in the same bar from time to time. I never have heard an inspector complain about it. I don't do it, but it is done from time to time. The funny thing is that I see many of them that, with care, would have fit in one hole.

 

[growler]

This is going to sound mean. Wish I could sugar-coated it but---

Maybe the HI should explain the problems to you, the Master Electrician.

Home Inspectors are not as dumb as most people think they are and they are pretty good at passing the buck (responsibility) on to others.

All an inspector needs to do is list these as items of concern and then suggest that the buyer consult with or have the panel inspected by a licensed electrician and then he is covered.

A home inspection is not a code inspection so the inspector does not have to justify his concern by stating the code in violation.

I don't really blame the home inspectors for doing it this way so as to cover themselves if anything goes wrong or when in doubt. They are not considered qualified to determine if an electrical system is safe only if it meets the requirements of their check list.

 

[raider1]

It says nothing of the sort, at least in the 2005 book, which we are on for residential.

I see grounding conductors split and terminated in two adjacent holes in the same bar from time to time. I never have heard an inspector complain about it. I don't do it, but it is done from time to time. The funny thing is that I see many of them that, with care, would have fit in one hole.

As I mentioned in a earlier post I was going from memory and you are correct.

110.3(B) would apply if the terminals are listed for connecting say up to a #6 and you split a #2 and terminate it then IMHO it would be a violation of the listing.

Chris

 

[petersonra]

As I mentioned in a earlier post I was going from memory and you are correct.

110.3(B) would apply if the terminals are listed for connecting say up to a #6 and you split a #2 and terminate it then IMHO it would be a violation of the listing.

Chris

I might buy into that idea. But the mere fact that the wire was split between two seperate terminals does not seem to me to be a violation.

 

[K8MHZ]

As I mentioned in a earlier post I was going from memory and you are correct.

110.3(B) would apply if the terminals are listed for connecting say up to a #6 and you split a #2 and terminate it then IMHO it would be a violation of the listing.

Chris

110.3(B) just says you have to follow the instructions.

Let's say I ran out of #4 bare stranded and had some #2 and used that instead. The grounding bar has a bunch of holes but no single hole will take over a #4.

Where does it say I can't separate the strands and use two holes to make the connection?

 

[iwire]

110.3(B) just says you have to follow the instructions.

Let's say I ran out of #4 bare stranded and had some #2 and used that instead. The grounding bar has a bunch of holes but no single hole will take over a #4.

Where does it say I can't separate the strands and use two holes to make the connection?

110.3(B), the wire is listed equipment and you are not using it is labeled.

It is labeled as 2 AWG so it must go in a hole that is listed for at least 2 AWG.