For 2014: Neutrals and Switches

[480sparky]

Sure. .

So if a device is an outlet, then everything else in the circuit is an outlet.

Device. A unit of an electrical system that carries or controls
electric energy as its principal function.

Premises Wiring (System). Interior and exterior wiring,
including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring
together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and
wiring devices, .............

 

[al hildenbrand]

Here's a luminaire that is also a device.

And another view of the same "luminaire".

 

[480sparky]

And if frogs wore pants, they could wear gun belts so they wouldn't have to be afraid of snakes.

 

[al hildenbrand]

So if a device is an outlet, then everything else in the circuit is an outlet.

The utilization equipment?
The transformer?
The wire?
. . . . everything?

 

[al hildenbrand]

So if a device is an outlet, then everything else in the circuit is an outlet.

Ken, receptacles are devices, and they are installed at an outlet.

 

[480sparky]

The utilization equipment?
The transformer?
The wire?
. . . . everything?

Pick a point on a circuit. Any point. Any circuit.


Does not that point 'take current' to 'supply utilization equipment'? Even if it's an atom somewhere in the copper....it's a point, and it takes current from the atom next to it and gives it to the atom on the other side of it.

Does not a screw in the circuit breaker 'take current' from the innards of the breaker and 'supplies' the conductor it's attached to?

Do not the jaws of a stab-in breaker 'take current' from the bus bar and 'supplies' the rest of the circuit?

Does not a stripped piece of copper 'take current' from the other piece of stripped copper in a splice and continues the flow of power?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Pick a point on a circuit. Any point. Any circuit.

Does not that point 'take current' to 'supply utilization equipment'? Even if it's an atom somewhere in the copper....it's a point, and it takes current from the atom next to it and gives it to the atom on the other side of it.

Does not a screw in the circuit breaker 'take current' from the innards of the breaker and 'supplies' the conductor it's attached to?

Do not the jaws of a stab-in breaker 'take current' from the bus bar and 'supplies' the rest of the circuit?

Does not a stripped piece of copper 'take current' from the other piece of stripped copper in a splice and continues the flow of power?

And this happens because a receptacle is a device?

 

[iwire]

Only the CMP can tell us what they "want" or intend.

I am asking you for your opinion, not an official interpretation .... you do have a personal opinion.

As manufacturers release "switches" with neutrals, it becomes harder to deny that the "switch" doesn't utilize electric energy.

If the device consumes electricity I am more than willing to call that point on the wiring system an outlet.

If it is just a 'standard' switch than no it is not an outlet. (IMPO)

 

[480sparky]

And this happens because a receptacle is a device?

Has nothing to do with receptacles at all. They are points on the wiring system, per the NEC definition of an outlet.

Now, if the innards of a snap switch used as a controller are not part of the premise wiring, why does that automatically make them outlets? Where in the NEC does it state "That which is not part of the premise wiring is considered an outlet."?

Why not consider the 'controller' portion of a snap switch the radiator in my truck, the Ark of the Covenant, or my next-door neighbors' left pinky as well?

 

[al hildenbrand]

I am asking you for your opinion, not an official interpretation .... you do have a personal opinion.

Actually, I don't have an opinion on what the CMP intends or wants, with respect to neutrals at a switch box, except for what I understand of what they wrote for us.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Has nothing to do with receptacles at all. They are points on the wiring system, per the NEC definition of an outlet.

You lept to this because a switch is a device. And, quoting you:

So if a device is an outlet, then everything else in the circuit is an outlet.

The part in red italics of the second quote is supported by my examples of the luminaire and receptacle devices. You say that, inspite of the outlets at luminaire devices and receptacle devices, that because a switch is a device then all points on the circuit are oulets. . .

Please, I'm trying to follow. Can you break it down for me?

Why does a switch do this when a receptacle device or luminaire device doesn't?

 

[480sparky]

You lept to this because a switch is a device. And, quoting you: The part in red italics of the second quote is supported by my examples of the luminaire and receptacle devices. You say that, inspite of the outlets at luminaire devices and receptacle devices, that because a switch is a device then all points on the circuit are oulets. . .

Please, I'm trying to follow. Can you break it down for me?

I'm not dragging luminaires and receptacles into this. I'm only talking about OUTLETS.

Now, read the definition of an OUTLET in the NEC.

Does not every portion of every wiring system meet that definition?

 

[al hildenbrand]

I'm not dragging luminaires and receptacles into this. I'm only talking about OUTLETS.

I don't see how, because you start at "if a device is an outlet, then everything else in the circuit is an outlet."

 

[480sparky]

I don't see how, because you start at "if a device is an outlet, then everything else in the circuit is an outlet."

Does not a run of NM meet the NEC definition of a device? The THHN inside of EMT? A meter socket? A neutral bar? Every portion of a circuit, per NEC definition, is a device.

Now, if it carries current, per the NEC definition of an outlet, then everything in the premise wiring system is an outlet. Breakers, neutral bars, meter sockets, NM, THHN, screws, terminals, splices.....

 

[al hildenbrand]

Does not a run of NM meet the NEC definition of a device? The THHN inside of EMT? A meter socket? A neutral bar? Every portion of a circuit, per NEC definition, is a device.

Now, if it carries current, per the NEC definition of an outlet, then everything in the premise wiring system is an outlet. Breakers, neutral bars, meter sockets, NM, THHN, screws, terminals, splices.....

And somehow, in your mind, we are spared this interpretation when a switch doesn't have an outlet occuring in it when the switch is used as a controller?

What is it about a switch being a device that causes outlets at every point on a circuit?

 

[480sparky]

And somehow, in your mind, we are spared this interpretation when a switch doesn't have an outlet occuring in it when the switch is used as a controller?

This makes absolutely no sense.

What is it about a switch being a device that causes outlets at every point on a circuit?

Read the definitions. READ the definitions. The definition of a device. AND the definition of an outlet.

Does not EVERY point on a wiring system MEET THOSE DEFINITIONS?



Answer that, please.

 

[al hildenbrand]

So if a device is an outlet, then everything else in the circuit is an outlet.

And somehow, in your mind, we are spared this interpretation when a switch doesn't have an outlet occuring in it when the switch is used as a controller?

What is it about a switch being a device that causes outlets at every point on a circuit?

This makes absolutely no sense.

But it is where you started to get to your argument about "points".

I didn't follow it either.

So, if it makes no sense, then there's no point to discuss "points".

 

[480sparky]

But it is where you started to get to your argument about "points".

I didn't follow it either.

So, if it makes no sense, then there's no point to discuss "points".

Is the connection where a wire terminates under a screw a 'point on the wiring system'? If so, then it's an outlet, per NEC definition.

Is the point half-way between one end of a wire and the other end a 'point on the wiring system'? If so, then it's an outlet, per NEC definition.

Is the point where a breaker's jaws grip the busbars a 'point on the wiring system'? If so, then it's an outlet, per NEC definition.

I'm not saying they're devices. I'm not saying they're receptacles, or luminaires, or the radiator on my truck or my next-door neighbors left pinky.

They are 'points on the wiring system', and they not? If so, then they are outlets, per NEC definition. Yes? No?

 

[al hildenbrand]

They are 'points on the wiring system', and they not? If so, then they are outlets, per NEC definition. Yes? No?

To explore your question, thinking only of the Article 100 Definition of Outlet:

A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

Then, exploring just the "yes" answer, the "yes" would mean a switch is an outlet.

But you are, I think, arguing against a switch being at an outlet.

Then, exploring "no", not all points on the wiring system are outlets, and that leads us to consider the definition wording "at which current is taken" . . .

I believe that Outlet is as opposed to inlet.

The Service Point is the "inlet" for the current taken by the utilization equipment.

The Outlet is . . . well, the "outlet" of the current taken from the wiring system.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Now, I return a question to you.

If I have two luminaires in series with each other, is only one of them an Outlet?