GFCI for refrigerator

[480sparky]

Pat who ?

 

[electricmanscott]

Pat who ?

Mahog?

 

[kwired]

Please spare me from reading this entire thread. I am not sure what we are arguing. Are we saying that the open space that has no countertop but is 2' wide ( a very unlikely scenario here ) does or doesn't need a recep. In my opinion, one is need somewhere in the space and no higher then the accepted wall outlets (5"6"). If there is a counter going across the top then the spacing could be for that of countertops and none is req. below.

Is that what this is about? This range talk has me confused.

The debate started when it was mentioned that a receptacle was required in the wall space behind a refrigerator, not because the refrigerator is in that space but because the space is wider than 2 feet, and because of that 210.52(A)(2) would require one there.

I am not taking sides because I do not see a code section to back up either side of the debate. Both sides seem to have some assumptions and no clear answer.

 

[tallgirl]

Absolutely not! It says it right there in black and white!

Unless you're saying it doesn't say something else, it absolute DOES NOT prohibit installing an additional receptacle for a gas range, and I quoted the 2005 exceptions that permit it. I'd quote the 2008, but I don't have it on-line. And I'm busy. And lazy.

AND, if it's just a wall, it doesn't even have to be trimmed out as a blank because then it's a wall and the 2 SABC's have to provide the power =to= that wall. Where the receptacle has to be. If the space is more than 2' wide. Which a gas range is.

What the exception permits is, for example, a receptacle to be added other than on the countertop (island, peninsula, etc) or along a wall, such as in, under, behind, a cabinet or other enclosure so that a clock or gas oven and/or range electric ignitor can be supplied power. If I remember correctly (I'm getting old, I may be mis-remembering ...) the same exception exists for a dedicated circuit associated with a built-in microwave oven. That is, it's a dedicated branch circuit and cannot have any other loads =except= a clock.

 

[tallgirl]

The debate started when it was mentioned that a receptacle was required in the wall space behind a refrigerator, not because the refrigerator is in that space but because the space is wider than 2 feet, and because of that 210.52(A)(2) would require one there.

I am not taking sides because I do not see a code section to back up either side of the debate. Both sides seem to have some assumptions and no clear answer.

It's a wall space that would otherwise require a receptacle. There's no code section that says "If you have a space big enough for a refrigerator, you have to put the receptacle behind where the refrigerator likely goes". It's just that putting it BEHIND the refrigerator makes it so you can plug in the refrigerator ...

Then there is an exception that allows a 15A dedicated circuit in lieu of using the two 20A SABC's.

So, you have to have one, because it's a wall. AND if you want to, you can put a 15A dedicated circuit in that space.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

It's a wall space that would otherwise require a receptacle. There's no code section that says "If you have a space big enough for a refrigerator, you have to put the receptacle behind where the refrigerator likely goes". It's just that putting it BEHIND the refrigerator makes it so you can plug in the refrigerator ...

Then there is an exception that allows a 15A dedicated circuit in lieu of using the two 20A SABC's.

So, you have to have one, because it's a wall. AND if you want to, you can put a 15A dedicated circuit in that space.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

You almost have it. If it is a space and does not have a frig or other appliance then yes its a wall. But being that wall is in the kitchen it would need be a 20 AMP and called a SA.
Do believe most inspectors would go by the stamped set of prints and use them to say if it is a wall or a space for frig,DW or what ever. Have never had an inspector not signed final because the range or frig is not there on final. With theft being a problem many will not be there .

 

[George Stolz]

Julie, I'll write big so you don't miss it.

What about a SABC receptacle behind an electric range?

 

[tallgirl]

Julie, I'll write big so you don't miss it.

What about a SABC receptacle behind an electric range?

Permitted, provided it meets the terms of the exception.

Which part of the two exceptions I quoted are you taking issue with? Other than you're taking issue with the comment @ 139 that explicitly said "(gas)"? I mean, a gas range is not an electric range

 

[tallgirl]

You almost have it. If it is a space and does not have a frig or other appliance then yes its a wall. But being that wall is in the kitchen it would need be a 20 AMP and called a SA.
Do believe most inspectors would go by the stamped set of prints and use them to say if it is a wall or a space for frig,DW or what ever. Have never had an inspector not signed final because the range or frig is not there on final. With theft being a problem many will not be there .

Okay. I have a wall. It is required to have a receptacle per 210.52 (B).

The architect draws a fridge there. The receptacle DOES NOT have to be a 20A SABC powered receptacle because of the previous Exception 2 --

Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration
equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individ-
ual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.​

Therefore, there must =either= be a 20A SABC receptacle in the space, or a 15 or 20A individual circuit receptacle for a fridge. The only other permitted receptacle is one for a clock. But that's another topic entirely.

There is no code that says "pick one" because the first (20A SABC) is required and the 15A individual circuit is permitted under an exception.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Is no issue as long as we have a frig or atleast calling that wall space frig. But if it is a space not intended for a frig then we have a wall that requires a receptacle. Being as it is in the kitchen it must be a SA receptacle and that forces us to 20 amps.


As for a range i see no reason we could not put a SA receptacle behind it even if it is electric. It simply is not one of the required receptacles but is allowed.

 

[tallgirl]

As for a range i see no reason we could not put a SA receptacle behind it even if it is electric. It simply is not one of the required receptacles but is allowed.

Because of this --

(2) No Other Outlets The two or more small-appliance
branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other
outlets.​

But if you say it's for one of the permitted exceptions, then no hay problema.

 

[480sparky]

We're drawing from several different angles here, folks.

We basically have several discussions going on all at once.

One: Is a receptacle (no matter what circuit that feeds it) required in the wall space behind a fridge or electric range?

Two: Are either required to be on an SABC, is either permitted to be on an SABC, or are they (if presence is required notwithstanding) not permitted to be on the SABC?

The third question, does it need to be GFCI-protected, has pretty much been answered. (No)

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

From following this forum for years i have reached conclusion that NEC is a very out dated document that has been modified so often that it is a complete mess that can never be fixed.
Serious consideration should me made to start over and every term used should be defined clearly.
Its like trying to save part of an electrical system from 1920's and bring it all up to todays code. Would anyone even try to reuse part of it ? Just start over.

 

[480sparky]

...........Just start over.

So am I to assume you're filling out 2,127,984 proposals for the 2014?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

So am I to assume you're filling out 2,127,984 proposals for the 2014?

Only needs 1 start over
It is nothing but a bunch of patches to fix 80 year old rules. Will it happen ? NO they make too much money every 3 years.

 

[480sparky]

Only needs 1 start over
It is nothing but a bunch of patches to fix 80 year old rules. Will it happen ? NO they make too much money every 3 years.

I can see it now.



Delete the following:
(See attached document)

And replace with:

"Use common sense people! Don't do anything stupid."

 

[George Stolz]

What about a SABC receptacle behind an electric range?

Permitted, provided it meets the terms of the exception.

Such as using...gas? Have you seen a lot of electric ranges that use gas?

 

[tallgirl]

Such as using...gas? Have you seen a lot of electric ranges that use gas?

I've said nothing about electric ranges, and neither did the person you responded to in 144 (his post was 139).

That said, if there is supplemental equipment, such as is described in the exception, it would be permitted. By the exception.

 

[George Stolz]

I've said nothing about electric ranges, and neither did the person you responded to in 144 (his post was 139).

True: he was ducking the question, and you were butting in without looking into the context of my line of inquiry, with the apparent intent of teaching me something.

If you hop in your Wayback Machine, and cruise further back in the thread, you will find that my ire was raised at Mike's insinuation that a 210.52(A) wall receptacle is required for walls behind ranges, including electric ranges. I find this to be an entirely inaccurate position, and I have been attempting to point that out.

I hate to tip my hand so early in the game, but if I can convince Mike that it is indeed not required to install a 210.52(A) wall receptacle behind a range, then it was going to be a short trip to make the case for refrigerators too - I feel okay with tipping my hand, as I am about out of patience with this "Who's on first" defense that has been presented, and am about to give up on the attempt entirely.

I just hope it is clear to casual readers of the thread that there have been several screwball ideas advanced, and to scrutinize what they read here closely, codebook in lap.

That said, if there is supplemental equipment, such as is described in the exception, it would be permitted. By the exception.

If there is supplemental equipment to the electric range like gas burners?

Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Since I may be causing this thread to continue may I suggest that I start a new thread (post) with each question in its own thread?

This may help those who think that I am using the Helen Keller NEC, help me see the light.