210.52(b)(2)

[480sparky]

And much of the confusion comes from not knowing the difference between the receptacle rules, the GFCI rules, and the SABC rules.

 

[George Stolz]

Ken, I am saying that 210.52(B)(2) prohibits installing a SABC receptacle behind an electric range. Agree or disagree?

 

[jxofaltrds]

Irrelevant.


It is. 210.52(B)(2) prohibits it.

Logic 101:

An exception (by nature) is going to say something contradictory to the rule that it is attached to.

Exception 2 exists for a reason. I am taking that for granted. If you believe it is wasted ink, that could be the source of our failure to communicate. Without exception 2, 210.52(B)(2) would be prohibiting us from installing any SABC receptacle behind any range.

This is where we disagree. It 'allows' that outlet to be feed from the SABC. It does not say that we can not add one for the range. Yes this would be stupid but allowed.

Let's mess with your hypothetical home after a while. Agreed?

OK.

 

[480sparky]

Ken, I am saying that 210.52(B)(2) prohibits installing a SABC receptacle behind an electric range. Agree or disagree?

Disagree. You install it for a gas unit in the future, even though you know an electric one is going to be installed.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Ken, I am saying that 210.52(B)(2) prohibits installing a SABC receptacle behind an electric range. Agree or disagree?

George

Why are we allowed to 'added' it to a SABC but not allowed to supply it from it's own SABC?

 

[George Stolz]

This is where we disagree. It 'allows' that outlet to be feed from the SABC.

Which "it" are you referring to, specifically?

It does not say that we can not add one for the range. Yes this would be stupid but allowed.

Please elaborate, I do not understand what you're saying here.

 

[George Stolz]

Disagree. You install it for a gas unit in the future, even though you know an electric one is going to be installed.

Show me that exception.

Why are we allowed to 'added' it to a SABC but not allowed to supply it from it's own SABC?

That ties into your hypothetical home - running a dedicated 15A or 20A homerun would be the only argument-free prewire, IMO.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Which "it" are you referring to, specifically?

Please elaborate, I do not understand what you're saying here.

"IT" being the exception. #2.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Show me that exception.

Do not need an exception for something not prohibited.

That ties into your hypothetical home - running a dedicated 15A or 20A homerun would be the only argument-free prewire, IMO.

20 AMP only. 15 AMP not allowed.

 

[George Stolz]

"IT" being the exception. #2.

Ah, okay, thanks.

210.52(B)(2)ex2 is too specific to be used for the electric range wall:

Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power
for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired
ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

It is for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas ranges. Only. Finis. Caput. End of sentence. It is not as general as you are trying to read it. It is very specific.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Ah, okay, thanks.

210.52(B)(2)ex2 is too specific to be used for the electric range wall:


It is for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas ranges. Only. Finis. Caput. End of sentence. It is not as general as you are trying to read it. It is very specific.

George when I finally convince you, you are going to kick yourself.

 

[480sparky]

Show me that exception.

210.52(B)(2) Exc. 2.

What other reason would you have to install a 120v recep in the range space other than for a gas range?

Nothing there says the range installed TODAY has to be gas-fired. So I installed it for any FUTURE gas range that may go in there.

Since I installed the SABC/recep for a gas range, it's allowed under the exception.

I seriously doubt many people will be pulling their stove out to plug in a toaster or coffee maker. If they did, then I failed miserably when it came to 210.52(C).

 

[jxofaltrds]

210.52(B)(2) Exc. 2.

What other reason would you have to install a 120v recep in the range space other than for a gas range?

Nothing there says the range installed TODAY has to be gas-fired. So I installed it for any FUTURE gas range that may go in there.

Since I installed the SABC/recep for a gas range, it's allowed under the exception.

I seriously doubt many people will be pulling their stove out to plug in a toaster or coffee maker. If they did, then I failed miserably when it came to 210.52(C).

Sounds like we may be agreeing?

"What other reason would you have to install a 120v recep in the range space other than for a gas range?"

We will do this one on another post.

 

[George Stolz]

George when I finally convince you, you are going to kick yourself.

With that said, I give up.

 

[George Stolz]

On my way out the door...

20 AMP only. 15 AMP not allowed.

I would LOVE to see your justification for this.

 

[480sparky]

Sounds like we may be agreeing?

"What other reason would you have to install a 120v recep in the range space other than for a gas range?"

We will do this one on another post.

I would have no problem putting in a 20a SABC recep behind an electric range, and would present Exc. 2 to the inspector all day long.

 

[jxofaltrds]

On my way out the door...


I would LOVE to see your justification for this.

Do what I do when I can not understand others here. Walk away for a while and come back. Sometimes I am still correct sometimes I am stiil wrong.

I would have no problem putting in a 20a SABC recep behind an electric range, and would present Exc. 2 to the inspector all day long.

One question down.

 

[Smart $]

Can someone tell me where the wall behind a not fastened-in-place range (gas, electric or otherwise) is not to be considered as wall space, or something other than wall space, in the determination and application of 210.52(A)(2)...???

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Does this help anyone?

210.52(C).
(1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.
Exception: Receptacle outlets shall not be required on a wall directly behind a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink in the installation described in Figure 210.52(C)(1).

 

[tallgirl]

Sounds like we may be agreeing?

"What other reason would you have to install a 120v recep in the range space other than for a gas range?"

We will do this one on another post.

I have both 240 and 120 receptacles for my dryer. Dad used to do all his houses that way, and I knew many a GC over the years who was the same way.

If I saw a 120VAC receptacle next to a 240VAC range receptacle, I'd think nothing of it. Apparently I'm a freak ...