Wall spaces in kitchens

[Smart $]

OK, let's try this:


Does this 24" space require a receptacle?:

What about this one?:

Yes

and

No... if the c'top is in an SABC room, and recptacles are installed to serve the c'top as required. It is still a wall space, but the c'top recpts satisfy the general wall space requirement.

JMO

 

[jxofaltrds]

OK, let's try this:


Does this 24" space require a receptacle?:

What about this one?:

Yes. AND No.

I know that this is going to drive you nuts. Part of the reason is that I can walk up to the wall and measure it.

Crawling on my knees under a countertop to measure a 'so-called' wall??????

If the area in the 2nd example was only 12" high would you tell me it was a wall space?

 

[480sparky]

Yes. AND No.

I know that this is going to drive you nuts. Part of the reason is that I can walk up to the wall and measure it.

Crawling on my knees under a countertop to measure a 'so-called' wall??????

OK, show my in the NEC where it's not considered a wall because you have to bend over.

If the area in the 2nd example was only 12" high would you tell me it was a wall space?

What difference does the height make? Where is this 12" rule you speak of?

 

[hurk27]

OK, let's try this:


Does this 24" space require a receptacle?:

What about this one?:

They both kind of look like the same space:grin:

let me guess, you have an inspector who is tagging you one this because the appliances are not in, are there any prints or kitchen layouts on the house?

I would go over this guys head because this is just plain out abuse of authority, at least that is what our state AHJ told the inspector who tried to tag me on it said.

If you know an appliance is going there why would you make a person put a receptacle in that space, what would you ever plug in under the counter that wouldn't violate the disconnect rule for appliances?

 

[jxofaltrds]

OK, show my in the NEC where it's not considered a wall because you have to bend over.

Not in the NEC.

What difference does the height make? Where is this 12" rule you speak of?

Not to toss the ball back into your court but what is your definition of a wall?

Would you count 7" high as a wall?

 

[david luchini]

I would say no, per 210.52(A)(1) (I assume you don't mean a receptacle that is serving the specific appliance, and that you mean a permanently installed appliance.)

210.52(A)(1) says "Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 6ft from a receptacle outlet." This applies to kitchens as well as family rooms, dining rooms, etc.

I would interpret along the floor line of any wall space as not applying when an appliance is permanently installed. The appliance prevents measuring along the floor line at the wall.

 

[jxofaltrds]

They both kind of look like the same space:grin:

let me guess, you have an inspector who is tagging you one this because the appliances are not in, are there any prints or kitchen layouts on the house?

I would go over this guys head because this is just plain out abuse of authority, at least that is what our state AHJ told the inspector who tried to tag me on it said.

If you know an appliance is going there why would you make a person put a receptacle in that space, what would you ever plug in under the counter that wouldn't violate the disconnect rule for appliances?

The example is for me.

I do not know what is going to be place, if anything, in that area. Yes I know a stove.

But we are talking code here. Does this space meet the wall space requirement?

 

[480sparky]

.........Not to toss the ball back into your court but what is your definition of a wall?

A material layer intended to enclose a space.

Would you count 7" high as a wall?

Yep.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I would say no, per 210.52(A)(1) (I assume you don't mean a receptacle that is serving the specific appliance, and that you mean a permanently installed appliance.)

210.52(A)(1) says "Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 6ft from a receptacle outlet." This applies to kitchens as well as family rooms, dining rooms, etc.

I would interpret along the floor line of any wall space as not applying when an appliance is permanently installed. The appliance prevents measuring along the floor line at the wall.

Is a free standing stove permanently installed?

 

[480sparky]

..........let me guess, you have an inspector who is tagging you one this because the appliances are not in, are there any prints or kitchen layouts on the house?..........

Negative. We're discussing the finer points of the NEC. Nothing more.

 

[pete m.]

Negative. We're discussing the finer points of the NEC. Nothing more.

Per the requirements of 210.52(A) in combination with 210.52(A)(2) I say it is wall space.

Pete

 

[charlie b]

Let?s take it one more step into the world of obscurity and absurdity. Looking at your image in post 20 (I don?t like to unnecessarily re-post images), let us consider both kitchen layouts at a time before the cabinets themselves are installed. Now you have a very wide wall that has no receptacles yet, and yes that wall is a ?wall,? and yes (while we are at it) there is a floor line along which we can take measurements. Do we flag it and tag it and demand installation of receptacles that will be blocked by the cabinets as soon as they are put into place?

The answer is simple. Look at the plans. If the two spaces (the 24? wide spaces in each of the two kitchen layouts shown in post #20) are designated for dishwashers, then there is no ?wall space? there, in the context of 210.52(A)(2). The existence of a wall does not imply the existence of ?wall space,? in this context. This is not ?wall space,? it is ?dishwasher space.?

Keep in mind that 210.52(A)(2) is not giving us a ?definition? of the phrase ?wall space.? It is telling us that IF we have a wall space, and IF we want to know whether to include it in the list of places that need receptacles, THEN here are some clarifying rules that will help us make that decision. But if we don?t have a wall space to begin with, then we don?t go to 210.52(A)(2) to determine if that non-existent wall space needs a receptacle.

By the way, one of my unsuccessful proposals for the 2011 NEC was to clarify that measuring the floor line at the front of a base cabinet is not part of the determination of receptacle requirements.

 

[charlie b]

And I will ask again, in vain hopes that someone will answer:

WHAT DO COUNTERTOPS HAVE TO DO WITH CONSIDERING IT A WALL SPACE REQUIRING A RECEPTACLE?

My reply, in the vain hope that anyone will read it, is that the lower image in your post #20 has a countertop over the 24" space in question. In that installation, the space above the countertop counts as though it were, well, countertop space. But as to the space below the countertop, see my previous post.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

It depends on what that space is that is under the counter top. If print says DW and likely will then is no problem.
If print does not specify a use then it is wall space and requires it. I have such a space at the end of my counter. I did not want a receptacle behind trash can so placed 1 within 6 feet .

 

[jwelectric]

Do wall spaces behind appliances (fridge, range, DW, etc.) in a dwelling-unit kitchen require a 120v 15- or 20a receptacle per 210-52(A)(2)(1)?

In general no but the way the question is ask the answer could be maybe.

I now refer you to your post #20. The top picture would require a receptacle but the bottom picture would not.
This is cleared up a lot in 2011 cycle in 210.52(A)(2)(1) and new 210.52(A)(4) which states that countertop receptacles can not be counted as those required in 210.52(A) either.

Now it all depends on whether or not you think that up coming code sections can help to better understand the spirit of today?s codes or not

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I see 5 have got this question wrong

 

[jxofaltrds]

Let?s take it one more step into the world of obscurity and absurdity. Looking at your image in post 20 (I don?t like to unnecessarily re-post images), let us consider both kitchen layouts at a time before the cabinets themselves are installed. Now you have a very wide wall that has no receptacles yet, and yes that wall is a ?wall,? and yes (while we are at it) there is a floor line along which we can take measurements. Do we flag it and tag it and demand installation of receptacles that will be blocked by the cabinets as soon as they are put into place?

The answer is simple. Look at the plans. If the two spaces (the 24? wide spaces in each of the two kitchen layouts shown in post #20) are designated for dishwashers, then there is no ?wall space? there, in the context of 210.52(A)(2). The existence of a wall does not imply the existence of ?wall space,? in this context. This is not ?wall space,? it is ?dishwasher space.?

Keep in mind that 210.52(A)(2) is not giving us a ?definition? of the phrase ?wall space.? It is telling us that IF we have a wall space, and IF we want to know whether to include it in the list of places that need receptacles, THEN here are some clarifying rules that will help us make that decision. But if we don?t have a wall space to begin with, then we don?t go to 210.52(A)(2) to determine if that non-existent wall space needs a receptacle.

By the way, one of my unsuccessful proposals for the 2011 NEC was to clarify that measuring the floor line at the front of a base cabinet is not part of the determination of receptacle requirements.

I like the openness of this comment.

So the question is: What is wall space?

IMHO a wall space is a place where you could place something. I mean a lamp, a chair, a picture, "personal property". Like a wood burning stove.

A built-in is "real estate". Like a fireplace.

I see 5 have got this question wrong

Guess who is one of the 5?

Will you admit to being wrong "IF" you are proven wrong?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I like the openness of this comment.

So the question is: What is wall space?

IMHO a wall space is a place where you could place something. I mean a lamp, a chair, a picture, "personal property". Like a wood burning stove.

A built-in is "real estate". Like a fireplace.



Guess who is one of the 5?

Will you admit to being wrong "IF" you are proven wrong?

I am not 1 of the 5 I am 1 of the 29

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

The poll is on this question
Do wall spaces behind appliances (fridge, range, DW, etc.) in a dwelling-unit kitchen require a 120v 15- or 20a receptacle per 210-52(A)(2)(1)?

answer is NO

actually many DW are hard wired so is no receptacle
I have not seen many gas ranges and never seen a 120 behind a range

note it said required

 

[jxofaltrds]

The poll is on this question
Do wall spaces behind appliances (fridge, range, DW, etc.) in a dwelling-unit kitchen require a 120v 15- or 20a receptacle per 210-52(A)(2)(1)?

answer is NO

actually many DW are hard wired so is no receptacle
I have not seen many gas ranges and never seen a 120 behind a range

note it said required

Jim

1) Frig----Required
2) Range(free standing)----Required
3) DW----(free standing) Yes (build-in) No
4) Etc--- anyones guess
5) Gas ranges are common up North
6) Get out more
7) You still hard wire a DW?