Wall spaces in kitchens

[Jim W in Tampa]

Jim

1) Frig----Required
2) Range(free standing)----Required
3) DW----(free standing) Yes (build-in) No
4) Etc--- anyones guess
5) Gas ranges are common up North
6) Get out more
7) You still hard wire a DW?

Where do you find support for that list ?

Yes direct wire for DW and breaker lock, fast,cheap, legal
Frig needs a receptacle yes but does not need to be behind it
Where do you see a requirement for a 120 volt receptacle behind an electric range ?

I see why you are 1 of the 5
but post article # for each and i gladly read them.

All of the spaces mentioned are not wall spaces they are areas for appliances and exempt

 

[jxofaltrds]

Where do you find support for that list ?

Yes direct wire for DW and breaker lock, fast,cheap, legal
Frig needs a receptacle yes but does not need to be behind it
Where do you see a requirement for a 120 volt receptacle behind an electric range ?

I see why you are 1 of the 5
but post article # for each and i gladly read them.

All of the spaces mentioned are not wall spaces they are areas for appliances and exempt

You are correct.

No requirement for me to place an outlet behind my:

Frig
Range
Micro
A door
Sofa
Night stand

Can I stop?

Do we not look at the 'wall space' requirements?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

You are correct.

No requirement for me to place an outlet behind my:

Frig
Range
Micro
A door
Sofa
Night stand

Can I stop?

Do we not look at the 'wall space' requirements?

We look at the stamped blueprint only. Then we take the space 1 at a time and if it calls for an appliance we handle it as such.
behind a door is required as it is wall space
a sofa is not an appliance
a night stand is not an appliance
You can stop or go
note what has been brought up here is spaces that do not have appliances and they are wall spaces that require outlets.

 

[jxofaltrds]

We look at the stamped blueprint only. Then we take the space 1 at a time and if it calls for an appliance we handle it as such.
behind a door is required as it is wall space
a sofa is not an appliance
a night stand is not an appliance
You can stop or go
note what has been brought up here is spaces that do not have appliances and they are wall spaces that require outlets.

Fair.

Now show me where an appliance exempts the wall space requirements.

Please list as many as you think are applicable.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Fair.

Now show me where an appliance exempts the wall space requirements.

Please list as many as you think are applicable.

Are you telling me if i have kitchen counter and meet the 2 foot and 4 foot rule that you want one behind the sink and range ? If so we have problems

take a look at figure 210.52c1

I rest my case

 

[jxofaltrds]

Are you telling me if i have kitchen counter and meet the 2 foot and 4 foot rule that you want one behind the sink and range ? If so we have problems

take a look at figure 210.52c1

I rest my case

Excellent example.

Where is the exception for a free standing range (with wall space behind it)?

Doesn't it say "Counter-Mounted"?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

210.52c exception
receptacle outlets SHALL NOT be required on a wall directly behind a range

 

[jxofaltrds]

210.52c exception
receptacle outlets SHALL NOT be required on a wall directly behind a range

Keep reading. "****** described in Figure 210.52(C)(1)"

 

[joebell]

2 of the 3 locations in the OP would require a receptacle anyway,the Fridge and Range, not to comply with 210.52 in anyway but simply just to work so that is a mute point.

As for the dishwasher space I could see how one could see it as wall space but I would not. I know there are some clarifications in 2011 as far as wall space but it mentions nothing about fixed in place appliances. Maybe further clarification is needed.

 

[480sparky]

2 of the 3 locations in the OP would require a receptacle anyway,the Fridge and Range,......

The fridge requires the recept, but does the wall space behind it require one?

And try to run your electric range off a 120v receptacle. :roll:

 

[jxofaltrds]

2 of the 3 locations in the OP would require a receptacle anyway,the Fridge and Range, not to comply with 210.52 in anyway but simply just to work so that is a mute point.

As for the dishwasher space I could see how one could see it as wall space but I would not. I know there are some clarifications in 2011 as far as wall space but it mentions nothing about fixed in place appliances. Maybe further clarification is needed.

Joe

If you have no article to quote then they are not required. "Simply just to work" is not in the code.

No way is the DW space wall space.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Keep reading. "****** described in Figure 210.52(C)(1)"

do you understand what x< 12 inches means ?
210.52c ---------------- divide the counter space into two seperate countertop spaces --------

spells it out in 210.52c 4 and 5

lets keep going

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Joe

If you have no article to quote then they are not required. "Simply just to work" is not in the code.

No way is the DW space wall space.[/QUOTE

good we agree on 1 thing

"No way is the DW space wall space. " but i will want to see a DW on final

 

[480sparky]

I'm baffled now.

What do c'tops have to do with wall spaces behind appliances?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I'm baffled now.

What do c'tops have to do with wall spaces behind appliances?

Some ranges are sit in and there is a few inches of counter behind them

 

[joebell]

The fridge requires the recept, but does the wall space behind it require one?

And try to run your electric range off a 120v receptacle. :roll:

What difference does it make if the wall space requires one when you have to put one there for the appliance to work?

Your original post did not specify gas or electric range, if the range is gas a 120 volt receptacle will work and again if you need it for the appliance to work as I stated above.

The wall spaces we are talking about would only require 1 receptacle in each location anyway.

 

[joebell]

Joe

If you have no article to quote then they are not required. "Simply just to work" is not in the code.

No way is the DW space wall space.

210,52(A)(1) all these appliance I believe are 24" or mor in width typically.

 

[480sparky]

What difference does it make if the wall space requires one when you have to put one there for the appliance to work?

They are two different requirements. One is wall space requiring a receptacle. The other is a receptacle for the appliance..... and there's no requirement that it be directly behind the appliance.

Your original post did not specify gas or electric range, if the range is gas a 120 volt receptacle will work and again if you need it for the appliance to work as I stated above.

So if you have an electric range, do you still need a 120v 15- or 20a recep?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

While we do need 120 for most gas ranges nothing says it must be behind the range. Typically it would be for looks but not required to be behind it. Same applies to the frig.
Note both can be on the SA circuit.

 

[joebell]

They are two different requirements. One is wall space requiring a receptacle. The other is a receptacle for the appliance..... and there's no requirement that it be directly behind the appliance.

I realize the receptacle is not required to be behind the appliance but the length of the cord only gives you so much lateral movement. I do not see a big difference a receptacle is required in this location for the equipment to function and it just so happens to fulfill the required receptacle for the wall space IMO.