What happens to current flow when an interrupting device is opened

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mull982

Senior Member
I was asked the other day by some co-workers what happens to current that is flowing down a line or wire when a breaker or other switching device is suddenly opened. The example they were questioning was a large amount of current 2000A at 4.16kV when a breaker was suddently opened. Some of their questions were weather or not there was some shunting device to get rid of the excess currents on the lines or if the powerlines or cables moved back and forth as kind of a reaction to the sudden interruption of the current. It seemed as if they were equating the sudden interruption of current to water hammer in a pipe.

My explaination to them was that AC current crosses zero twice every cycle at 60Hz. In a perfect world if the device was somehow able to open itself at exactly the zero crossing then it would be almost as if there was no current flowing down the line at all when the device interruped the line. In other words it would be the same as the device opening with no current flowing.

Since opening at zero crossing is not always the case I explained for all other times there is usually arcing in the interruption device until the zero crossing where the arcing is able to estinguish. As an example if a molded case breaker or switch is opened when current is flowing at the peak of the wave then most likely there will be acring between the contacts of the switch/breaker unti the current waveform crosses zero and the arc is able to distinguish iteslf. In some cases there may be enough of a voltage difference that the Arc is able to restrike and arc again for another half cycle until the next zero crossing where it is estinguished.

As a third case I mentioned an example as a vaccum breaker or contactor where there is not much arcing and therefore the current is immediately forced to zero. In such a case the effect of instantly forcing the current to zero usually results in a transient effect of some kind, and in most cases this transient effect is a voltage transient in the form of a voltage spike or voltage rise. This voltage transient can sometimes be followed by ringing or some other transient. So in this case the result of stopping current suddenly is a voltage reaction or transient.

I'm not sure if I addressed this question correcly but responded to the best of my knowledge. I wanted to share my response here, in order to hear what others had to say either in addition to or in correction to my response.

I appreciate any input.
 

jghrist

Senior Member
I think your explanation is very good. It might be too technical for some and not detailed enough for others, but everything you say is correct and I think it strikes a good balance.
 

rcwilson

Senior Member
Location
Redmond, WA
Good explanation.

You mentioned lines or cables moving when the breaker opens. This can appear to happen on an overhead line feeding a fault. The fault currents can create magnetic forces that push the wires apart or pull them together. When the breaker opens the lines swing back to their normal position. It happens so fast that the bang from the breaker opening or the fault seems to cause the swinging wires.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Another thing that happens when you turn off a load is that the frequency of the system rises....with normal loads this change in frequency would not be measurable. If the load is a many megawatts, it can be measured. The reverse happens when a load is connected to the grid...the frequency drops a bit.
 

BJ Conner

Senior Member
Location
97006
It the field that moves

It the field that moves

The speed of electrons in an energized conductor is very slow. You can walk faster than they move (if I remember my physics correctly). The electrical field in a conductor moves at the speed of light ( adjusted for permeablity factors of one thing or another.) .

There is no moving mass traveling at speeds where relativiistic mechanics or even Newtonian mechanics come into play. No like water in a hose.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Therein lies some of the problems with the "water in a pipe" analog for electricity. Indeed water hammer, or residual kinetic energy, is an issue for water. The kinetic energy gets converted into mechanical force that we can see and feel and worry about. But as mentioned, there really is very little "movement" of anything tangible in the "flow" of electricity. It is actually just a transfer of the potential of energy from a source to a load (with some losses in between). Any actual energy conversion, i.e. kinetic (movement) or thermal (heat/light) or static (conversion) takes place at either end.

When I have to explain it to those that need help understanding the difference, I use this analogy:

a5689c82f3c593d122f878bf93fdbb20.png


Remember these toys? There is energy transferring from the first ball to the last ball and back again, but the balls in the middle don't really move. Now imagine a string of these balls miles long, with the generator being the first ball and the motor (or light or heater or power supply etc.) being the last one. Energy is transferred down the line, but the "balls" in the middle aren't really moving (well, even this analog isn't perfect for electricity).

Using this model, opening the circuit is essentially just like grabbing a ball in the middle of the line-up and holding it so tight that it can't transfer it's energy to the next one. The "hold" is the dielectric strength of the air gap (or vacuum gap) in the circuit interruption device. If weak enough, some energy still gets transferred. But by the way, there is an energy conversion that happens when you open the circuit, in the form of heat in the arc. It's much more extreme than a lot of people think, hence the "burning" of contacts.
 

rcwilson

Senior Member
Location
Redmond, WA
Great example, Jraef! I like the swinging ball analogy.

Now can you modify it to explain Voltage Drop, Var Flow and Power Factor without using foam in the beer?
 

glene77is

Senior Member
Location
Memphis, TN
The speed of electrons in an energized conductor is very slow.
You can walk faster than they move (if I remember my physics correctly).
>>> As I recall, something like 1.5 millimeters per second.


The electrical field in a conductor moves at the speed of light ( adjusted for permeablity factors of one thing or another.) .
>>> The speed of detectable field effects of gravity appear to be instaneous, at distances from earth to sun. That is what I've read in physics papers.


There is no moving mass traveling at speeds
where relativiistic mechanics or even Newtonian mechanics come into play. Not like water in a hose.
>>> But the grouping of these electrons do behave as a plasma,
ala P.A.M. Dirac (founder of quantum electro-dynamics),
which looks like water in the hose to regular folks.

Quantum Mechanics is weird, almost unbelievable. :)
Electricians don't have to get into physics too much, certainly not quantum,
but do have to learn not to grab the wrong wire ! :mad:
Its been over 50 years, and I still have my eyes and am alive. :)
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Great example, Jraef! I like the swinging ball analogy.

Now can you modify it to explain Voltage Drop, Var Flow and Power Factor without using foam in the beer?
But why would I? I like foam in beer! :D

Let's see...
Voltage drop: the balls are not 100% solid, they are very slightly plastic and a little of the energy is absorbed in each ball as vibration. Each one is relatively insignificant but the longer the string of balls, the more the effects of those tiny losses add up.

VAR flow: the frame is actually slightly twisted, so some of the energy transfer is oblique to the theoretical straight line up of balls and... nah.... I think you got me there, and without VARs I can't relate PF to that model.

But hey, I use this analogy when discussing it with people who would get lost in a VAR / PF discussion anyway!
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
>>> As I recall, something like 1.5 millimeters per second.
It varies with current density but it is in the order of millimeters per minute rather than seconds.
But then bear in mind that AC reverses every half cycle (8.33 ms or 10 ms depending on your power frequency) so the actual distance travelled amounts to a very small "wiggle" back and forth.
 

mivey

Senior Member
It varies with current density but it is in the order of millimeters per minute rather than seconds.
But then bear in mind that AC reverses every half cycle (8.33 ms or 10 ms depending on your power frequency) so the actual distance travelled amounts to a very small "wiggle" back and forth.
But not a net zero distance in all cases.
 

mull982

Senior Member
Therein lies some of the problems with the "water in a pipe" analog for electricity. Indeed water hammer, or residual kinetic energy, is an issue for water. The kinetic energy gets converted into mechanical force that we can see and feel and worry about. But as mentioned, there really is very little "movement" of anything tangible in the "flow" of electricity. It is actually just a transfer of the potential of energy from a source to a load (with some losses in between). Any actual energy conversion, i.e. kinetic (movement) or thermal (heat/light) or static (conversion) takes place at either end.

When I have to explain it to those that need help understanding the difference, I use this analogy:

a5689c82f3c593d122f878bf93fdbb20.png


Remember these toys? There is energy transferring from the first ball to the last ball and back again, but the balls in the middle don't really move. Now imagine a string of these balls miles long, with the generator being the first ball and the motor (or light or heater or power supply etc.) being the last one. Energy is transferred down the line, but the "balls" in the middle aren't really moving (well, even this analog isn't perfect for electricity).

Using this model, opening the circuit is essentially just like grabbing a ball in the middle of the line-up and holding it so tight that it can't transfer it's energy to the next one. The "hold" is the dielectric strength of the air gap (or vacuum gap) in the circuit interruption device. If weak enough, some energy still gets transferred. But by the way, there is an energy conversion that happens when you open the circuit, in the form of heat in the arc. It's much more extreme than a lot of people think, hence the "burning" of contacts.

This anaolgy is a Home Run! Great example and it goes perfect with my somewhat broad technical explanation that I preseneted in my OP.

This is a great discussion and I'm interested in learning more about the physical nature of the current and energy transfer as well as electrons etc...

Does anyone have any better technical details about some of the system transient effects that happen when arcing occurs or when current is forced to zero in vaccum contactors etc..?
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
Physics should be a required course for electricians, you learn physics first, then electrical theory. Save the water pipe stuff for explaining stuff to your customers.

I use pool balls for explaining current "flow", I taught my son physics by dropping stuff off our deck and shooting pool. Now he is heaed off to get his engineering degree.
 
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