Rommex question - South Florida

[Strife]

This question might be more related to the Florida area.
I'm working on some remodeling in a 2 story, 8 units rental building.
GC says I can not use rommex because, being a "rental building" with more than 4 units, it's considered a commercial building. I tell him it's still a multifamily dwelling, but he's not too convinced. I'm gonna call the city inspector tomorrow morning to find out, but I figure I would ask here as well.
It doesn't matter to me, I work T&M for this particular GC, so it's his money, as MC and metal boxes are more expensive and more labor intensive.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

What kind of wiring is there now?

 

[Strife]

Conduit as everything inside is most walls block with stucco.

What kind of wiring is there now?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Well it has to do with the type of construction but like everything there could be amendments that will not allow NM. Generally there is nothing in the NEC that would prohibit nm in a multifamily building other then the type of construction. Look at art. 334.10 ( I think)

 

[Cavie]

The GC is wrong and Dennis is correct. Even if the existing wireing is in conduit, romex remodel is allowed.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

hollow concrete blocks are great and often you can fish down them. What county are you in or are you in a city limit. Very unlikely you will need more than romex.

 

[roger]

Why would a GC know more about the applicable electrical codes than you as an EC would?

Roger

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

This question might be more related to the Florida area.
I'm working on some remodeling in a 2 story, 8 units rental building.
GC says I can not use rommex because, being a "rental building" with more than 4 units, it's considered a commercial building. I tell him it's still a multifamily dwelling, but he's not too convinced. I'm gonna call the city inspector tomorrow morning to find out, but I figure I would ask here as well.
It doesn't matter to me, I work T&M for this particular GC, so it's his money, as MC and metal boxes are more expensive and more labor intensive.

Noticed you said CITY is this by chance NAPLES if so he might be right.

 

[tkb]

This question might be more related to the Florida area.
I'm working on some remodeling in a 2 story, 8 units rental building.
GC says I can not use rommex because, being a "rental building" with more than 4 units, it's considered a commercial building. I tell him it's still a multifamily dwelling, but he's not too convinced. I'm gonna call the city inspector tomorrow morning to find out, but I figure I would ask here as well.
It doesn't matter to me, I work T&M for this particular GC, so it's his money, as MC and metal boxes are more expensive and more labor intensive.

Why would you care then?
Take his money.

 

[peter d]

If you end up using NM cable on this particular project, be warned that the instant you energize the cables, the entire building will explode into a gigantic ball of plasma and disappear from existence.

 

[iwire]

If you end up using NM cable on this particular project, be warned that the instant you energize the cables, the entire building will explode into a gigantic ball of plasma and disappear from existence.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

If it turns out he is in Naples he will learn costly lesson

 

[Strife]

Ft Lauderdale.
Not even putting rommex in the block walls. The remodeled walls are studs.

hollow concrete blocks are great and often you can fish down them. What county are you in or are you in a city limit. Very unlikely you will need more than romex.

 

[John Valdes]

I know NM was not allowed in any type of construction down there until the middle to late 70's. It was all EMT. Residential and commercial.
I do not see any reason why you could not use it in this application. The studs being present makes it even more doable.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I know NM was not allowed in any type of construction down there until the middle to late 70's. It was all EMT. Residential and commercial.
I do not see any reason why you could not use it in this application. The studs being present makes it even more doable.

Naples had a stupid law years ago that a 4 unit apartment could not be in romex. That was city of naples only not Collier county. Actually had an EC biding aginst my partner at the time. He wired it in romex and had to tear it all out and run pipe. I have no idea if that law has been lifted or not. But he said south Fl. Maybe he will return and tell us. We must always see what local codes might apply.

 

[Strife]

Per Florida Building code, there can't be anymore city codes

Naples had a stupid law years ago that a 4 unit apartment could not be in romex. That was city of naples only not Collier county. Actually had an EC biding aginst my partner at the time. He wired it in romex and had to tear it all out and run pipe. I have no idea if that law has been lifted or not. But he said south Fl. Maybe he will return and tell us. We must always see what local codes might apply.

 

[COTInspector]

In Florida any "so called" local amendments should be challenged, ask to see the proof that they have been approved by the ECLB.
To the best of my knowledge the only local amendments to the NEC in the State of Florida that are approved by the ECLB belong to Pinellas County.
1) All raceways must include an equipment grounding conductor
2) The equipment grounding conductor must be mechanically connected to each metallic junction box that the conductor passes thru or terminates in

The type of construction (see Annex E in the NEC) may dictate the type of wiring method used.

334.10 Uses Permitted.
Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following:
(1) One- and two-family dwellings.
(2) Multifamily dwellings permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V construction except as prohibited in 334.12.
(3) Other structures permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V construction except as prohibited in 334.12. Cables shall be concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that provide a thermal barrier of material that has at least a 15-minute finish rating as identified in listings of fire-rated assemblies.

NM may even be used in Type I & II construction when installed in a raceway by exception.

334.12 Uses Not Permitted.
(A) Types NM, NMC, and NMS. Types NM, NMC, and NMS cables shall not be permitted as follows:
(1) In any dwelling or structure not specifically permitted in 334.10(1), (2), and (3)
Exception: Type NM, NMC, and NMS cable shall be permitted in Type I and II construction when installed within raceways permitted to be installed in Type I and II construction.

So in my opinion I would say the structure in question maybe wired in NM cabe, even if the construction is of Type I or II when installed in a permitted raceway. I have never seen NM installed in a raceway system, I'm sure it would be more cost efffective to install THHN/THWN in the conduit or use MC cable.

COTInspector
EC,BN,PX,Instructor

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

In Florida any "so called" local amendments should be challenged, ask to see the proof that they have been approved by the ECLB.
To the best of my knowledge the only local amendments to the NEC in the State of Florida that are approved by the ECLB belong to Pinellas County.
1) All raceways must include an equipment grounding conductor
2) The equipment grounding conductor must be mechanically connected to each metallic junction box that the conductor passes thru or terminates in

The type of construction (see Annex E in the NEC) may dictate the type of wiring method used.

334.10 Uses Permitted.
Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following:
(1) One- and two-family dwellings.
(2) Multifamily dwellings permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V construction except as prohibited in 334.12.
(3) Other structures permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V construction except as prohibited in 334.12. Cables shall be concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that provide a thermal barrier of material that has at least a 15-minute finish rating as identified in listings of fire-rated assemblies.

NM may even be used in Type I & II construction when installed in a raceway by exception.

334.12 Uses Not Permitted.
(A) Types NM, NMC, and NMS. Types NM, NMC, and NMS cables shall not be permitted as follows:
(1) In any dwelling or structure not specifically permitted in 334.10(1), (2), and (3)
Exception: Type NM, NMC, and NMS cable shall be permitted in Type I and II construction when installed within raceways permitted to be installed in Type I and II construction.

So in my opinion I would say the structure in question maybe wired in NM cabe, even if the construction is of Type I or II when installed in a permitted raceway. I have never seen NM installed in a raceway system, I'm sure it would be more cost efffective to install THHN/THWN in the conduit or use MC cable.

COTInspector
EC,BN,PX,Instructor

The info i had was many years ago back before 1982 and was city of Naples only. No idea when it was removed. I did very little work within city limits.

As to the grounding conductor ,every company i ever worked for in the TBA wanted it and i never argued it as i think its better anyways.

 

[dragonlp]

At one time Ft Lauderdale had special code for east of Federal Highway. Don't know if they are still in effect. I haven't been down that way in years.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

At one time Ft Lauderdale had special code for east of Federal Highway. Don't know if they are still in effect. I haven't been down that way in years.

I think that amendments in FL are now gone with a few exceptions.
I never understood why staes or towns think they need to change NEC
makes it very hard for anyone taking a test.