Bonding of generator gas pipe.

[Saywatt]

Home inspector sited that the gas pipe (1" galvanized) that feeds a 60kva generator be bonded for lightning protection.

The generator is controlled by a ats that does not open the neutral.

This is a 400-amp service and the gas meter (not bonded) is on the opposite side of the house.

Since the ats does not open the neutral, wouldn't the feeder ecg be a sufficient bond, or does it need to be bonded to the service gec?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If there is no dielectric fitting in the gas line then the egc should suffice based on 250.104(B)

 

[ceb58]

Home inspector sited that the gas pipe (1" galvanized) that feeds a 60kva generator be bonded for lightning protection.

The generator is controlled by a ats that does not open the neutral.

This is a 400-amp service and the gas meter (not bonded) is on the opposite side of the house.

Since the ats does not open the neutral, wouldn't the feeder ecg be a sufficient bond, or does it need to be bonded to the service gec?

Ask the home inspector (who has no authority) to give a code section for his comment.
Now look at 250.104 (B) From all of the gen. I have installed the female coupling for the gas line is mechanically attached to the frame of the generator which in turn is bonded to the EGC of the feeders.

 

[Saywatt]

No dielectric fitting, but there is a short piece of flex in the line a couple of feet from the generator.

I was considering just driving a rod at the gas meter and running a #6cu back to the service gec.

 

[ceb58]

No dielectric fitting, but there is a short piece of flex in the line a couple of feet from the generator.

I was considering just driving a rod at the gas meter and running a #6cu back to the service gec.

Bottom line is it is not requried. Look at the wording in 250.104 (B) "likely to be energized". By the OP I would guess there is other gas equipment in the home. If so then it should be already bonded. Home inspectors try and come up with all kinds of things to give the buyer, who he works for, more things to try and beat the price down on the sell.

 

[hurk27]

I believe this is a misconception of the requirements of CSST gas lines failures and lightning strikes, and has nothing to do with generators, this HI has his facts wrong and crossed between two requirements, there is no requirement to bond the gas pipe to a generator which is already bonded by the shear fact it is connected to the generator, the flex line supplied with these generators are design to continue this bond with the stainless steal flex that is embedded in under the outer cover of this line. unless this generator is fed with CSST line? then that could be a whole different story.

In that case I would advise bonding across any CSST type lines.

I do question the 1" gas line feeding a 60kw generator that has a 450k + BTU gas requirement? unless it is a high pressure line with the regulator at the generator?

 

[Saywatt]

Is CCST the flexible yellow stuff? If so, it 's not a part of the line.

Actually the HI noted that it was not required, but that he highly recommended it for lightning protection.

The people I am doing the work for have already purchase the 2.5 million dollar house, and want everything perfect.

Thanks for the replies and the 250.104(b) reference.

 

[hurk27]

Is CCST the flexible yellow stuff? If so, it 's not a part of the line.

Actually the HI noted that it was not required, but that he highly recommended it for lightning protection.

The people I am doing the work for have already purchase the 2.5 million dollar house, and want everything perfect.

Thanks for the replies and the 250.104(b) reference.

Yes CSST is that yellow stuff, and when I see it or know it will be installed I up charge for the extra bonding requirements.

As far as protecting from lightning, I tread the ground very lightly around this subject, as very few requirements in the NEC if any will do anything for lightning prevention, even ground rods, there have been test done at Camp Blanding, Fl. that prove NEC required ground rods are worthless when it comes to lightning, as they also do nothing in the areas of protecting against shock hazards touch hazards, or much of anything in a house, so to me if you like sticking tooth picks in the Earth go for it, just don't expect it to protect against a lightning strike.

With that said, when I'm directed by another source to put in any ground rods, I try to make it clear it will not protect from a lightning strike, I don't want anyone thinking that it will or expect it too, I do this because I don't want a home owner coming back after being hit by lightning and trying to pin down against me that it should have, so I make sure it is understood it was not my recommendation.

For more info read this post http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=77454&highlight=%22camp+blanding%22

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Is CCST the flexible yellow stuff? If so, it 's not a part of the line.

Actually the HI noted that it was not required, but that he highly recommended it for lightning protection.

The people I am doing the work for have already purchase the 2.5 million dollar house, and want everything perfect.

Thanks for the replies and the 250.104(b) reference.

Yes, Csst is the yellow stuff.

In that case I would advise bonding across any CSST type lines.

If it were CSST then bonding across the lines would not satisfy the bonding of this type of pipe. We know , freom the OP, that this flexible pipe is not CSST.

 

[hurk27]

Yes, Csst is the yellow stuff.

If it were CSST then bonding across the lines would not satisfy the bonding of this type of pipe. We know , from the OP, that this flexible pipe is not CSST.

yes that was cleared up is his third post, but I have seen the findings of what happens when lightning hits the chimney of a gas fire place or furnace stack and tries to return through this gas pipe, and how it will arc to other conductive metal along the way, and these arc points is where it puts a hole in the CSST line and bang you have a fire or explosion, the problem I have is the manufactures recommended bonding of the main gas line coming into the building at the point of entrance does nothing but invite more current to flow on the CSST, without a bond across the CSST and bonds to other metal points close to the CSST this arc will still happen, I sat in on our state meetings on this problem, and its not an easy one, my recommendation was to not allow CSST to any appliances that penetrated the roof, or had ducts run as high as an attic, but the manufactures called foul to our legislation, and the state allows it with just the manufactured recommended bonding.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Hurk My point was that a jumper is not enough for the csst pipe. A #6 minimum and , for some manufacturers a bond wire based on 250.66, must be used for CSST piping all the way back to the service.

 

[Saywatt]

Well, as it turns out:

I went back to the job this morning to explain to the owner that the generators egc was a sufficient bond, only to notice that the phone and cable blocks (10ft. away from the gas meter) were bonded together at a ground rod that wasn't bonded to the service gec.

So, I went ahead and ran a #6 from the service gec to the phone/cable rod and then to a new rod at the gas meter.

How did the home inspector miss this?

 

[ceb58]

Well, as it turns out:

I went back to the job this morning to explain to the owner that the generators egc was a sufficient bond, only to notice that the phone and cable blocks (10ft. away from the gas meter) were bonded together at a ground rod that wasn't bonded to the service gec.

So, I went ahead and ran a #6 from the service gec to the phone/cable rod and then to a new rod at the gas meter.

How did the home inspector miss this?

He is a home inspector. Very rarely will you find one that is code savvy. He probably saw it went to a ground rod and thought it was OK without knowing that it must be bonded to the service grounding system. That is the PITA with dealing with 90% of HI. They invent things that have no ligament code violations while overlooking the real ones.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Home Inspectors have a tough situation. They have to be savvy in many trades. We have a few here in our area that attend every meeting of our chapters NC Assoc of Electrical Contractors. Some do try to expand their knowledge but we cannot expect them to know it all.--- Heck most EC have no clue on many code issues that many of us take for granted.