New Sub Panel
- Thread starter laketime
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
IMO, if you just replace the panel then you are not required to change the feeder, however if you changed this panel from a main service panel to a sub panel thru an upgrade of the service then I believe you need to change the feeder.
That being said many areas will allow the upgrade without changing the feeder. I would ask the AHJ
That being said many areas will allow the upgrade without changing the feeder. I would ask the AHJ
tryinghard
Senior Member
- Location
- California
I think it's our responsability as qualified electricians to correct this kind of stuff when found. Most likely it was not installed by an electrician - someone made it work but they didn't know how to make it right.
In light of 250.142(B) ask yourself this question: If I don't correct the feed how will I terminate the new sub feed?
In light of 250.142(B) ask yourself this question: If I don't correct the feed how will I terminate the new sub feed?
- Location
- Massachusetts
I feel it may be our responsibility to bring it to the the attention of the customer and after that is up to them to decide to spend the money or not.
Exactly how it had been.
This is a common problem with old work, the sub feeds were not required to carry the ground when they were installed, today when you replace the sub panel the inspector will look for the proper grounding, so it is best to let the customer know up front what you will have to do to pass the inspection, then let them make the call do the work or not.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Or not, that would be decided on locally.
IMO here in MA our 'Rule 3' would mean it is not my problem and if it is a 'real hazard' Rule 4 applies making it the inspectors problem.
cadpoint
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
What if the panel if feed by a existing EMT conduit?
Last edited:
jerryalan
Member
- Location
- Perry, Mi. Shiawassee
- Occupation
- electrician
new sub panel
new sub panel
that would make it easy to snake a ground in . . .
how long would it take, another ?hr?
new sub panel
that would make it easy to snake a ground in . . .
how long would it take, another ?hr?
cadpoint
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
EMT can be used as the EGC, See Article 358.60. But it has to be there to begin with for a cost effective application, thus my question to the OP.
In any case, I do like the various progressive and regional answers given also!
It seems to come down to the aspects of the construction and the Local AHJ.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Or, be the ground.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
If it is not going to be much trouble to make it right I will do so, even if I am not required to do so. I have even switched a lot of range and dryer circuits from 3 to 4 wire even though not required when upgrading services because they were fairly easy to switch and it is best in the long run to do it that way.
tryinghard
Senior Member
- Location
- California
You could attempt but they won't likely sway just because (in their mind its been just fine from the past). Although there's a remote chance if you teach them well for good understanding but in my opinion it's best asserted.
I believe this will be violating 250.6:roll:
tryinghard
Senior Member
- Location
- California
Check this prop out regarding 250.6 Objectionable Current
- Location
- Massachusetts
250.6 has nothing to do with it at all.
tryinghard
Senior Member
- Location
- California
How so?
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
If I were to permit this as a "repair" then I would be allowed to just replace the sub-panel. If I permitted as some sort of "up-grade, new installation" then I would probably have to change out the feeder if I couldn't get special permission to leave the feeder.
Here on a service up-grade you would have to show that it is really going to be cost prohibitive to change out the feeder.
The best people to consult are the local authorities.
The NEC does not say that requirements should only be followed if it is convenient or inexpensive. If the original sub-panel was installed incorrectly, you MUST correct it with the new installation. IF it was installed under a code that did NOT require the grounds and neutrals to be separated, then it could be left as is. HOWEVER, I don't know that there is a code that allows a sub-panel to be installed in this manner. I have only been in the trade for 30 years or so and sub-panels have always required separate grounds and neutrals when they were in the same building. We used to be able to install a panel in a separate building with the neutrals and grounds together (used to say "new building = new service") but that is now gone. Just because something has been in violation for years and it would be hard to fix does not give you permission to leave it in violation.
I once did a service change where the original installer had used the black wires as the grounded conductor (neutral) conductors and the white wires as the ungrounded (hot) conductors. Could I put them back that way just because it had been like that for years and it was going to be expensive to correct? Of course not! It was, is, and will probably always be a violation and I had to correct it as part of my installation.
I once did a service change where the original installer had used the black wires as the grounded conductor (neutral) conductors and the white wires as the ungrounded (hot) conductors. Could I put them back that way just because it had been like that for years and it was going to be expensive to correct? Of course not! It was, is, and will probably always be a violation and I had to correct it as part of my installation.
- Location
- Massachusetts
How can I tell you how it does not apply??????
Can you tell me why you think it does apply?
- Location
- Massachusetts
That really depends on the how the local areas has decided to handle it.
I posted how my area handles it and it does not require the EC today to correct the mistake made in the past.
- Status