outdoor romex in pvc pipe run underground

[jimmy_mcquade]

Hi all,

I am trying to do some work for dad and have figured out what i want to
do, but my lack of experience has me asking several questions.

Circuit #1 is for a maximum 2 hp water well to the house. I will be using outdoor rated romex. From the main breaker, we will run approx 150 ft. This distance is mostly inside the house. We then go outside and down one of the 2 x 8 rafters (along the center) on the carport. From there i plan on running the romex inside pvc pipe underground approx 4 ft so i can get to the well house disconnect. Total length inside the pvc pipe is 20 ft.

Since this is 125 - 150 ft, will i need to goto #8 due to wire length?
If so, can my main beraker will be 40 amp and the breaker at the pump will be 30 amps?
Can this be done with outdoor rated romex or do i need to jave a junction box
and splice the romex to thwn wire?

The next cable running along the same path is for an ac welder.
The input current is 42.5 amps. I was going to run a # 6 romex using the 75 degree column rated 65 amps, or should i go with #4 due to the length?

The size of the conduit i am planning to use is 1 1/2" based on fill.

all comments are much appreciated.

thanks in advance,
jimmy

 

[Dennis Alwon]

you cannot use nm in conduit outside where subject to moisture. Underground is considered a wet location so NM is out. You can switch over to UF or run UF the entire way.
Read art. 300.9

 

[jimmy_mcquade]

so could i use romex and go into a junction box and then splice into thwn wire?
Am i correct with my other plans as far as wire size?

thanks,
jimmy

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Jimmy, I am having a hard time with what you are doing. It sounds like you have 2 feeds going out to a structure. This is a violation. This is not a simple install and I am afraid that being an electricians helper this may be beyond your reach.

Try and give a better picture of this scenario.

 

[Cavie]

wire a sub panel.

 

[ceb58]

Hi all,

I am trying to do some work for dad and have figured out what i want to
do, but my lack of experience has me asking several questions.

Circuit #1 is for a maximum 2 hp water well to the house. I will be using outdoor rated romex. From the main breaker, we will run approx 150 ft. This distance is mostly inside the house. We then go outside and down one of the 2 x 8 rafters (along the center) on the carport. From there i plan on running the romex inside pvc pipe underground approx 4 ft so i can get to the well house disconnect. Total length inside the pvc pipe is 20 ft.

Since this is 125 - 150 ft, will i need to goto #8 due to wire length?
If so, can my main beraker will be 40 amp and the breaker at the pump will be 30 amps?
Can this be done with outdoor rated romex or do i need to jave a junction box
and splice the romex to thwn wire?

The next cable running along the same path is for an ac welder.
The input current is 42.5 amps. I was going to run a # 6 romex using the 75 degree column rated 65 amps, or should i go with #4 due to the length?

The size of the conduit i am planning to use is 1 1/2" based on fill.

all comments are much appreciated.

thanks in advance,
jimmy

Jimmy, first you need to get your termanology correct. Romex is a trade name. There is no outdoor rated Romex. Art.334 for NM cable read its permitted and not permitted uses. then look at Art. 340 for underground cable.
You did not state the voltage of the water pump so lets say it is 240v the amps would be around 12amp. If your longest run is indoors then you can run #10 NM (Romex) to a junction box then change to #10 UF to make the transition to underground direct buried. On a 20amp breaker. The only thing the #10 will do is keep you from having too much voltage drop.
You need to supply more info on the welder such as duty cycle.

As Dennis said if these two are going to the same structure then it is a violation.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Perhaps your boss will help you lay this out on paper or even another electrician you work under or with. Its great that you want to help your dad but you likely do not have the skill level yet to do this alone.
As mentioned if both are going to same location then you already have a violation with 2 circuits.

 

[jimmy_mcquade]

Thanks for the replies.

The voltage of the water pump is 240 volts with a maximum of 2 hp
and this is a dedicated circuit.

The ac welder is also 240 volts, 42.5 amps input, 30% duty cycle and has 2 weldng ranges, 0-125 amps and 70-225 amps. The output of the welder is ac, dc only welding rod do not work. The circuit is also dedicated to the welder only. The welder is only used occasionally used for
repairs on the farm.

I hope this additional information helps.

thanks again,
jimmy

 

[romex jockey101]

Jimmy, I am having a hard time with what you are doing. It sounds like you have 2 feeds going out to a structure. This is a violation. This is not a simple install and I am afraid that being an electricians helper this may be beyond your reach.

Try and give a better picture of this scenario.

how is having two feeds a violation

 

[romex jockey101]

Jimmy, I am having a hard time with what you are doing. It sounds like you have 2 feeds going out to a structure. This is a violation. This is not a simple install and I am afraid that being an electricians helper this may be beyond your reach.

Try and give a better picture of this scenario.

how is having two feeds a violation?

 

[romex jockey101]

Perhaps your boss will help you lay this out on paper or even another electrician you work under or with. Its great that you want to help your dad but you likely do not have the skill level yet to do this alone.
As mentioned if both are going to same location then you already have a violation with 2 circuits.

i dont understand the violation with the two seperate circuits can u explain please..

 

[romex jockey101]

Jimmy, first you need to get your termanology correct. Romex is a trade name. There is no outdoor rated Romex. Art.334 for NM cable read its permitted and not permitted uses. then look at Art. 340 for underground cable.
You did not state the voltage of the water pump so lets say it is 240v the amps would be around 12amp. If your longest run is indoors then you can run #10 NM (Romex) to a junction box then change to #10 UF to make the transition to underground direct buried. On a 20amp breaker. The only thing the #10 will do is keep you from having too much voltage drop.
You need to supply more info on the welder such as duty cycle.

As Dennis said if these two are going to the same structure then it is a violation.

i understand everything you said but im confused on how you cant have two seperate circuits in a raceway going to a structure?

 

[raider1]

i dont understand the violation with the two seperate circuits can u explain please..

225.30 only permits a single branch circuit or feeder to supply a structure. Keep in mind that a multiwire branch circuit is considered a single branch circuit for this section.

So 2 branch circuits would be a violation of this section.

Chris

 

[mrvaliant360]

Technically,
I don't think those circuits he is planning on running to that well house fall under 225.30. Those circuits aren't serving that structure in general, there serving specific equipment..........in my opinion. The circuit for the well serves the dwelling not the well house.

I believe the intent of 225.30 is to limit the number of feeders that serve out buildings in general. Also, he can run additional feeders as long as he has documented switching procedures.
Now, by code he has to run one feeder for an outlet to serve the structure, which would require a singlepole switch as a disconnect.

I think it would be more cost effective and less labor involved to run one feeder to install a panel to serve the structure and a control circuit for the equipment.

Mark DuVerger
Mark's Electrical Service

 

[tom baker]

A building or structure is limited to one service or feeder (with execeptions). There must be a means of disconnect, that has to be approved for service use. There could be two small panels set side by side, but its faster and easier to install perhaps a 12 ckt panel with a main. Also must have a grounding electrode system.
See 225.31, 32, 33, 34, 36
For grounding see 250.32

 

[roger]

Technically,
I don't think those circuits he is planning on running to that well house fall under 225.30. Those circuits aren't serving that structure in general, there serving specific equipment..........in my opinion. The circuit for the well serves the dwelling not the well house.

So using that logic, I could have an outbuilding with an AC, water heater, welder, CNC machine, Table saw, and a few other pieces of equipment and I could feed each with a seperate branch circuit from another structure as long as each branch circuit only served the specific item, would this be correct?

Roger

 

[LarryFine]

Roger, don't forget the lights.

 

[roger]

Roger, don't forget the lights.

Oh yeah, the lights too, thanks Larry.

Roger

 

[ceb58]

Roger, don't forget the lights.

Or the refrigerator for beer and
the big screen TV

 

[roger]

Or the refrigerator for beer and
the big screen TV

Okay, those too, this could get out of hand. :grin:

Tell Wanda we said hi.

Roger