sizing motor circuit protect: heat pump/supplemental electric heat & blower package

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pfanta

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sizing motor circuit protect: heat pump/supplemental electric heat & blower package

I need help sizing motor circuit protect: heat pump/supplemental electric heat & blower package

I have a new fan in the attic that draws about 2A 230v.
I just found out that there is a supplemental electric heater [KFCEH0401N03] that draws 12a at 240v.

There is a new package unit outside with compressor/fan that draws 16.1 FLA at 240v. It's a real 240v from a delta supply.
My original idea was to use the old AC feed with existing 30a cb and put a
GE manual motor starter
with the
16a heater in it
as a local disconnect and wire the whole thing in #10. I was going to use another manual starter at the blower with a two amp heater in it, also wire it in #10.

The CBs protecting the whole thing are very old too I must say.

First, I don't know if that idea would've been ok because I can't continue because the supplement heat is now to be provided for.

Anyway, now I have to run another circuit back to the old main and get a blower/heater 2p ct.

Is my original idea ok for the package unit, that is to have it under the 30a 2p, run it using the old #10's and then disconnect the unit with a local [toggle] manual motor starter that has a 16a heater strip for protection?

Can I downgrade my blower disconnect to simply a two pole 20a toggle on my new 20a 2p circuit for the blower and sup heat? Downgrade, that is, because of no fuse.

Usually these things have fused disconnects next to them, but when I sized the needs, this seemed adequate. Am I missing something because the original breakers are not HVAC rated? Or because the breakers are sized for the wire but I have to interrupt the load from the disconnect with breakers sized at 125% to allow for inrush or locked rotor?

At the blower/heater, since it is just a squirrel cage, there doesn't seem too much chance of it locking up. It seems not much different from the blower on a FAU that is just protected by a summer switch.

Thanks Guys!
 
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curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Is the blower with strip heater a listed air handler? Is the outdoor compressor and fan a listed unit? If so why are installing overload protection for the motors? The manufacture has already done this. You should be following the labels on each unit for sizing the branch circuit conductors and overcurrent device.
 

pfanta

Member
Is the blower with strip heater a listed air handler? Is the outdoor compressor and fan a listed unit? If so why are installing overload protection for the motors? The manufacture has already done this. You should be following the labels on each unit for sizing the branch circuit conductors and overcurrent device.

Yes. It's all listed eq. The only reason is to provide a disconnect. The strip heater wants #12's and a 20A cb. The compressor wants 30A cb and I couldn't find the label for the overcurrent device, only that it draws 19.1A I don't have the paper on the package unit. I will look at the nameplate tomorrow..

I am happy to just provide a 20A 2pole switch to shut the package unit off.
The blower/strip says in the book however that it is unfused. Only the small units appear to be unfused.
 

gndrod

Senior Member
Location
Ca and Wa
Unit type?

Unit type?

Yes. It's all listed eq. The only reason is to provide a disconnect. The strip heater wants #12's and a 20A cb. The compressor wants 30A cb and I couldn't find the label for the overcurrent device, only that it draws 19.1A I don't have the paper on the package unit. I will look at the nameplate tomorrow..

I am happy to just provide a 20A 2pole switch to shut the package unit off.
The blower/strip says in the book however that it is unfused. Only the small units appear to be unfused.

Could you give us the heat pump package brand and model number? Usually a heat strip for the HVAC unit is a standard 5 kW. Add that to the compressor and blower motor section and it may be a higher load.

The reason I ask is the heat pump unit may have two slot strip loading and the inspector may require the feeder match the total unit potential.
 
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pfanta

Member
starter switch- kneaded?

starter switch- kneaded?

Thanks for your reply...
It's a small unit and seems to have only one slot.

the heat pump is a carrier 25HBC324W0030010
which shows on the nameplate
min circuit amps 16.8
max fuse 25A
max ckt-bkr(*) 25A HACR type recommended

the strip heater is the KFCEH0401N03
3 KW @ 240V
INTERNAL PROTECTION: NONE
HEATER AMPS: 12.0 AT 230V
MIN AMPACITY: 17.3 @ 230V
MIN WIRE SIZE @ 230V: 12
#12 MIN GRD WIRE SIZE
MAX FUSE CT BKR @ 230V 20a
MAX WIRE LENGTH: 68 FEET AT 230V
NON-FUSED
1 PHASE

So I can run 10's or 12's and protect them both with 20A cbs.
I do not then need the starter switch at the strip heater using a 19A fuse?
Should I just use a couple of two pole 20a toggles and call it a day?
Thermal-Unit-3HYZ9_AS01.JPG


I have just seen these smaller units protected by the fused starter switches.
Maybe there were all just older models that didn't have good internal "inherently protected"
thanks!

Motor-Switch-3HYJ7_AS01.JPG
 
Last edited:

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Forget about using motor starter switches for this application. They are not listed or designed for this application. You need to use fusible switches or circuit breakers sized per the manufactures nameplates.
 

pfanta

Member
Your first picture is of a heater not a fuse. 2 very different things.
curt thanks for your reply. i've been reading up on it and it seems that the heaters melt and then reconstitute themselves... They can even weld closed! I don't see how these do that - looks like those are the heaters with the spoke wheels...

Also they don't react fast enough to protect the wire. Circuit breaker or fuse is the Short Circuit Protective Device.

Heater protects the motor from long term Thermal OverLoad.
Usually used to signal a contactor to open all three poles.

Fuses, if they are sized correctly: [115% of FLA?] can be technically used as both.
But they only come in certain sizes and... what happens if only one blows on the 3 phase motor.

Thanks for directing me to a somewhat clearer understanding of something I have been murky about for a long time.

I will install one new HVAC rated 20a CB per device to protect the wire and rely on the inherent protection for the motors in these small devices. Simple 2p disconnects at each one.
 
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