Grounding of two wire circuits

[Castrovinci]

I have been searching the NEC for this and can't seem to find it. I will be replacing a ceiling fan for a customer that has only "two wire BX" circuits no ground. My question is do I take the ceiling fan ground and tie it in with the neutral or do I just leave it off. I was thinking a GFCI breaker but I have heard too much trouble with tripping issues. I don't do too much residential.

Does anyone have an article number as well?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I see you are an engineer but are you licensed to electrical work?

I am closing this thread, in accordance with the Forum rules. This Forum is intended to assist professional electricians, inspectors, engineers, and other members of the electrical industry in the performance of their job-related tasks. However, if you are not an electrician or an electrical contractor, then we are not permitted to help you perform your own electrical installation work.


If I have misjudged the situation, if for example this project is related to your work, then send me a Private Message. If you can show me that I am wrong, and that you are a licensed electrician (or at least a licensed apprentice), then I will reopen your post, and offer an apology for the delay and inconvenience.

A reminder to all members, if you see a questionable post, feel free to report it by clicking the

button at the top right corner of the post.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I am reopening this thread based on conversation with the OP. He is a licensed electrician and EE.

 

[roger]

Don't take this wrong but as an PE and licensed electrician you should be able to forget the NEC and think of the theory and reasons for EGC's and then apply that to what you would be doing.

GFCI's work fine in commercial kitchens and construction sites so this fan should not be a problem.

Roger

 

[augie47]

If I were to bet, in reality I bet a vast majority of such fans get re-connected with the ground left unconnected.
From my experience, fans vs GFCI are not near the problem they are thought to be.
IMHO, the worst thing you could do would be to connect the grounding to the grounded.

 

[S'mise]

just pull a new cable

just pull a new cable

You could use 250.134(B)ex1 But I find it easier to just pull a new cable back to the panel. As Holmes says "make it right"

I always grumble when a simple job turns not so simple but I sleep well at night knowing its done right.

 

[kwired]

Is the sheath of the BX cable an equipment grounding conductor? If newer cable it likely is they put a bare bonding conductor just under the sheath to make it a more effective equipment grounding conductor.

If older cable it may not not be a EGC and may not even be grounded at all.

If it is grounded in any way by connecting the green wire on the fan to the neutral in the outlet box you have just made the sheath a parallel path for neutral current.

 

[mivey]

Don't take this wrong but as an PE and licensed electrician you should be able to forget the NEC and think of the theory and reasons for EGC's and then apply that to what you would be doing.

He should, but many never do. Think about how many times we get questions along these lines from people who would know better if they just spent a little time thinking about it. But, like many things, we tend to not think about them until we have to.

 

[mivey]

If I were to bet, in reality I bet a vast majority of such fans get re-connected with the ground left unconnected.

I'll piggyback that for double the money.

IMHO, the worst thing you could do would be to connect the grounding to the grounded.

That bears repeating. Don't do it.

Think about it. Read through the discussions here. Maybe someone could post a few good threads for the OP to read.

 

[Castrovinci]

Re:

Re:

All,
Thanks for your replies. A great wealth of collective thoughts you have provided.

I do think the best answer is running a new cable, since I will be running another homerun near there anyways. But if I run into this issue in the rest of the house I may have to go with a gfci as unfortunately its the old style BX with no ground at all besides the tracer (from my understanding can never be used as a ground). I don't believe it will be such an issue even with a motor load such as a fan but I still do hear of 1 or 2 problems from different folks. Although mostly older GFCI's seem to be the root even the new style GFCI's (depending on manufacture) you still here a few issues.

The parallel grounded and grounding conductor scenario makes a great deal of sense although if I understand correctly it can be done to an existing branch circuit for range/dryer recp. 250.140 (my wire is certainly less than 10 though and it not a range!) Nevertheless the 2008 NEC handbook explains better on the parallel potential grounding/grounded situation on page 253

Unfortunately looking over article 250.134 (B) Ex 1 wouldn't really do me any great help since I would still need to run a separate conductor, and at that point I might as well run a separate line.

I guess my final though is since it's just replacing a ceiling fan would one have the right to put the fan back up there with no ground connected since I have not changed any electrical installation or does it fall under the same principle that we have all seen a thousand times ---- ceiling fan hanging with no listed ceiling fan box? I understand it?s not good practice, but is it a violation I am just curious.

New Line or GFCI!

Thanks everyone

 

[Castrovinci]

Added comment

Added comment

Don't take this wrong but as an PE and licensed electrician you should be able to forget the NEC and think of the theory and reasons for EGC's and then apply that to what you would be doing.

GFCI's work fine in commercial kitchens and construction sites so this fan should not be a problem.

Roger

He should, but many never do. Think about how many times we get questions along these lines from people who would know better if they just spent a little time thinking about it. But, like many things, we tend to not think about them until we have to.

The parallel grounded and grounding conductor scenario makes a great deal of sense although if I understand correctly it can be done to an existing branch circuit for range/dryer recp. 250.140 (my wire is certainly less than 10 though and it not a range!) so its not that I am not thinking about this its just I NEVER deal with BX-..MC or pipe only.....Nevertheless the 2008 NEC handbook explains better on the parallel potential grounding/grounded situation on page 253

Heck we can't know it all....common sense or not... :roll:

 

[mivey]

I guess my final though is since it's just replacing a ceiling fan would one have the right to put the fan back up there with no ground connected since I have not changed any electrical installation or does it fall under the same principle that we have all seen a thousand times ---- ceiling fan hanging with no listed ceiling fan box? I understand it?s not good practice, but is it a violation I am just curious.

Violation. See 410.42 (B)

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would connect the ground from the fan to the metal box and be done with it. It can't be any worse then it was.

 

[mivey]

I would connect the ground from the fan to the metal box and be done with it. It can't be any worse then it was.

Why go through that effort and time? Why not just walk up and down the ladder a few extra times instead? At least you would be getting some exercise.

 

[Castrovinci]

Answer

Answer

Violation. See 410.42 (B)

Thank you this is exactly what I was looking for.:grin: It sums up my whole question

In Summary it must have one of the following

1. GFCI Protection
2. Seperate Ground ran in accordance to 250.130(C)
3. Be made of Insulated material and have no exposed parts
4. Be inaccessible to unqualified personnel

 

[mivey]

Thank you this is exactly what I was looking for.:grin: It sums up my whole question

In Summary it must have one of the following

1. GFCI Protection
2. Seperate Ground ran in accordance to 250.130(C)
3. Be made of Insulated material and have no exposed parts
4. Be inaccessible to unqualified personnel

I don't think exception #4 applies to wiring methods with no ready means for grounding.

 

[kwired]

The parallel grounded and grounding conductor scenario makes a great deal of sense although if I understand correctly it can be done to an existing branch circuit for range/dryer recp. 250.140 (my wire is certainly less than 10 though and it not a range!) so its not that I am not thinking about this its just I NEVER deal with BX-..MC or pipe only.....Nevertheless the 2008 NEC handbook explains better on the parallel potential grounding/grounded situation on page 253

Heck we can't know it all....common sense or not... :roll:

The use of grounded circuit conductor as equipment grounding also on a range or dryer is not a parallel path it is only one path connected to the load as well as the frame of the range or dryer. Now if another grounded object is to contact the range or dryer then it may carry some of the grounded circuit conductor current.

BX (AC) cable is required for the sheath to have adequate fault carrying capabilities. (320.108)

MC cable sheath can, but does not have to be an equipment ground conductor. (330.108)

Old AC cable does not have bonding conductor installed like newer AC which helps assure a lower impedance during a fault, but is still grounding potential if connected to grounded enclosures with proper fittings.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Why go through that effort and time? Why not just walk up and down the ladder a few extra times instead? At least you would be getting some exercise.

The op's customer has BX. I am betting it is grounded, at least somewhat.

 

[jumper]

The op's customer has BX. I am betting it is grounded, at least somewhat.

I am not sure the OP knows what he has. He says that he has BX with no ground, than says this:

its the old style BX with no ground at all besides the tracer

His tracer could very well be the sheath bond wire and I believe this now makes the sheath a possible EGC.

 

[Buck Parrish]

All,

I do think the best answer is running a new cable, since I will be running another homerun near there anyways.

Don't forget AFCI protection 210.12(b)