Checking Old Wiring

[Little Bill]

I had a prospective customer ask if I could check out the wiring in an old house they are trying to buy, maybe built in the 20's or thirties. Other than visually checking the wires that I can see or get to easily, what is the best way to check them. I know to check continuity and for open or shorts. I guess I need to know the condition of the insulation of the wires. I don't have a megger, which I know that's what you should use if you can. I'm just starting out and don't want to buy every tool available until I get established (more coming in than going out). Are there some tricks that any of you use without using a megger? Also, I did look at some meggers and saw all types of voltage ranges, brands, and especially prices. What is a good reliable one that is not in the mega-bucks price range? Also, what voltage range meter would I need to look at?

 

[ptonsparky]

I don't believe you should do much more than just look at wiring in a house that is not owned by the customer. Any problems that could possibly show up later will be blamed on you. Even removing the device plates could come back to bite you. Tread lightly. Charge for your "look". You may make the potential buyer happy but you will PO of the seller.

I use Fluke 1507s. About $425

 

[Little Bill]

I don't believe you should do much more than just look at wiring in a house that is not owned by the customer. Any problems that could possibly show up later will be blamed on you. Even removing the device plates could come back to bite you. Tread lightly. Charge for your "look". You may make the potential buyer happy but you will PO of the seller.

I use Fluke 1507s. About $425

Thanks PtonSparky,
The customer didn't ask me to go into detail just look and see what I thought. Someone, not an electrician, had told her it was bad and would cost a ton to replace. She just wanted a surface look and if she decides to buy she would want detail, thus my question about checking the old wiring. So you are saying if I check, the megger would be the only way to check in detail.
Just a thought, how does a house inspector get buy with opening panels, boxes, switches, etc. without putting himself liable?

 

[480sparky]

Ditto on the 1507.

You may also want to make sure that you get a signed contract for this job, and that it specifically states that, while you did your best to locate any faults, there is absolutely no way you are able to find every possible fault in the system.

6 months from now the place burns down, the fire marshal calls it an electrical fire, and you find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit..... it's a long shot, but still within the realm of possibility.

 

[mgmelec]

if this is a knob and tube job i would, recomend to the customer the home should be rewired. i just finished a job in an old farm house, we rewired it in phases, started in the attic and worked our way down to the basement. all in all it was a fun, profitable job.

when i say fun i mean you have to make it fun because in reality its dusty, dirty, labor intensive job.

 

[growler]

Are there some tricks that any of you use without using a megger?

I wouldn't call it a trick but a megger is not the first thing I use. On an old house I would first do a visual inspection. You can normally see the panel or fuse box and also the attic, crawl space or basement. If I see a bunch of rat chewed wire or lots of electrical tape and flying splices this is normally not good.

The first question is what are you starting out with? Is there power on the house at present and has it been on and working (occupied) with no major problems in the recent past. If the power has been off for some time or the property left derelict then you can have problems getting power restored.

If a house is setting empty one of the main problems can be vandels.

 

[augie47]

Unless they want to pay for a THOROUGH inspection, In this area, the cursory check involves a plug in tester, flashlight & screwdriver and normally includes:
(a) general condition of the wiring (frayed jacket, open splices, etc)
(b) panel inspection-- proper overcurrent protection--overall condition
(c) device inspection... polarity & ground check (plug in tester) GFCI test
(d) obvious alterations..not to Code
(e) grounding electrode system intact

The most common items I see:
Deteriorated service cable
New panels on existing undersized service cable.
Oversized fuses or breakers (panel or fuse box full of 30 amp OCP)
3 wire receptacle replacement of 2 wire
Open splices..added (thrown-in) wiring..extension cords being used as fixed wiring, etc.

 

[satcom]

Just a thought, how does a house inspector get buy with opening panels, boxes, switches, etc. without putting himself liable?

The home inspectors have insurance coverage with E&O which costs a great deal more then year to year electrical contractors coverage.

 

[Little Bill]

I wouldn't call it a trick but a megger is not the first thing I use. On an old house I would first do a visual inspection. You can normally see the panel or fuse box and also the attic, crawl space or basement. If I see a bunch of rat chewed wire or lots of electrical tape and flying splices this is normally not good.

The first question is what are you starting out with? Is there power on the house at present and has it been on and working (occupied) with no major problems in the recent past. If the power has been off for some time or the property left derelict then you can have problems getting power restored.

If a house is setting empty one of the main problems can be vandels.

I've only talked to her once on the phone and I didn't ask if there was power on now or recently. I'm supposed to talk to her in more detail on Monday. I will post more on this later.

Thanks to all who replied.

Bill

 

[renosteinke]

You're talking about doing an inspection. It's worth visiting the "Home Inspection" sites and seeing all the disclaimers that they have in their contracts. You're also looking at carryong 'errors and omissions' insurance. Finally, you're wanting to insist on getting paid NOW, without regard to the sale, or whether the corrective work is ever actually performed.

Buyers often mislead trade-types into thinking that they will see future work in return for their 'free' estimate. That's a lie ... all they want is a bargaining chip to whittle the price down; you'll never hear from them again, nor will the work ever be done.

Otherwise, just how comfortable are you with your knowledge of the construction types of the past? Can you look at a house and instantly know what you're likely to find? Does your eye tell you what the original layout of the house was? As those watching "Holmes" know, it's usually the 'improvements' done over the years that create the problems.

Likewise ... have you tried insuring a house lately? Mortgage lenders want insurance - and insurance companies have their own requirements. Do you know what those are?

 

[petersonra]

I would not even try to megger out old wiring like that. It is going to give you readings that would make you crazy, but are not that unusual for wiring of that era.

I agree that about all you can do is make a visual inspection.

It might or might not make sense to charge for the visit. Keep in mind all the speculation about liability is just that. You can get sued for anything, even if you were completely uninvolved. It happens now and then. You still have to defend yourself in court. Most of what liability insurance is really about is having someone big enough on your side in court that you are far less likely to be taken advantage of simply because you cannot afford to defend yourself adequately.

80 or 90 YO wiring and electrical equipment probably needs to be replaced. There just is no way around that. You might want to just tell her that for free. I would not be doing anything beyond that for free. If she wants a piece of paper to use to bargain the price down, charge her for that.

 

[Sparky555]

I had a prospective customer ask if I could check out the wiring in an old house they are trying to buy, maybe built in the 20's or thirties. Other than visually checking the wires that I can see or get to easily, what is the best way to check them. I know to check continuity and for open or shorts. I guess I need to know the condition of the insulation of the wires. I don't have a megger, which I know that's what you should use if you can. I'm just starting out and don't want to buy every tool available until I get established (more coming in than going out). Are there some tricks that any of you use without using a megger? Also, I did look at some meggers and saw all types of voltage ranges, brands, and especially prices. What is a good reliable one that is not in the mega-bucks price range? Also, what voltage range meter would I need to look at?

I get the following type of call regularly:

A person who is not a customer of mine is shopping for a home. They get a home inspection and it has notes to have an electrician check the wiring, panel, GFCIs or whatever. This "prospective customer" calls me to find out what it will cost to fix. They may or may not buy the house. They will most likely use your quote to negotiate the price of the home, but will not hire you for the repairs in your quote. You need to charge substantially for this service (visual only), or let someone else do it for free.

 

[Little Bill]

I talked with my prospective customer today and she has decided on another house. She wants me to do some wiring on the other house, after she buys it. She doesn't want an estimate to bargain the price, she just wants me to tell her if I will take the job after the closing. She told me she just trusted me and wanted me to do it, if I felt comfortable with it. I told her I would look at it and let her know when she is ready. Looks like everything has worked out ok so far.

Thanks to everyone for the advise.