CFL Use in hazardous rated incandescent fixtures

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natfuelbill

Senior Member
1. Can CFLs be used in these incandescent fixtures?

Area is classified due to methane.

The fixtures are installed and from Crouse-Hinds, Appleton and killark.

2. Putting the UL issue aside for a moment. is the use of CFLs known to be dangerous? Any history of accidents?
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
First off, UL has issued a blanket statement that you can use CFL's in any fixture designed for 'ordinary' bulbs, as long as you do not exceed the actual watt limitations of the fixture.

Beyond that, it helps to understand how UL tests things.

An evaluation for hazardous locations typically focuses on two things: what happens if an explosion is triggered inside the product, and the surface temperatures of the outside if the product.

Since CFL's run cooler than incandescent bulbs, the temperature issue is a non-starter.

As for igniting gasses inside the fixture: UL assumes that this will happen in normal operation. They fill the fixture with an explosive mixture, surround the outside of the fixture with the explosive mixture, then deliberately ignite the gasses inside. The test requirement is that the explosion within not ignite the vapors outside. Little boom = pass; big boom = fail.

I don't see any reason to not substitute a CFL for an ordinary one.

As for the 'track record' of CFL's, my experience has soo far been quite positive. A CFL is extremely reliable in my 'trouble light,' performing much better than even 'rough duty' incandescents. I've seen many restaurants use them in their kitchen hood lights with great success - despite fears about the higher temperatures. The only downside is that a particular CFL may not fit in a particular fixture.
 

natfuelbill

Senior Member
Ahh, we should beware of blanket statements as they are easily taken too far!

Dear Mr. Natfuelbill,

The luminaire manufacturer would need to submit the incandescent luminare with the CFL lamps for an investigation to determine its acceptibility.

I hope this helps...

Best regards,

Bridget Reese
Project Engineer
Hazardous Locations, Gas & Oil Industry
Conformity Assessment Services
Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.
Phone: +1 847 664 1282
Fax: +1 847 407 1282
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
That may prevent the manufacturer from recommending using CFL's, but it doesn't stop the end user from installing them, nor me from recommending them.
 

natfuelbill

Senior Member
That may prevent the manufacturer from recommending using CFL's, but it doesn't stop the end user from installing them, nor me from recommending them.

Do you agree that installing CFL in fixtures Listed or Labeled for incandescent use only (not Listed or Labeled for CFL lamps) is a Code violation?
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Do you agree that installing CFL in fixtures Listed or Labeled for incandescent use only (not Listed or Labeled for CFL lamps) is a Code violation?

Might take a few years but I am sure that maybe the lawyers and courts will let us know the answer sometime in the future. Most likely repeatedly with different results depending on the State and other variables.
 
Do you agree that installing CFL in fixtures Listed or Labeled for incandescent use only (not Listed or Labeled for CFL lamps) is a Code violation?

Indeed it is.

I would argue that it is probably technically OK in the case of Class I, Div. 1 rated fixtures, but I see more of a problem with Div. 2 fixtures, especially with the end-of-life failure mode.

I always wondered if the UL listing requires that the BULBS be also UL listed and if there is some crazy manufacturing variance or 'cost improvement' possible that would cause the incandescent bulb to burn hotter than the ones originally tested, thus make the installation a potential source of ignition despite the testing.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Do you agree that installing CFL in fixtures Listed or Labeled for incandescent use only (not Listed or Labeled for CFL lamps) is a Code violation?
If they say "Incandescent Only" or "No CFL's", then yes. If they merely don't mention CFL's, then no.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
I still maintain that installing CFL's in a haz loc fixture is not an NEC violation.

The only approach to claiming a violation is to say they are not covered by the listing and labelling. I have already reported official statements by UL that they did not see a problem.

Another poster is asserting that someone from UL told him different. If a UL spokesman wishes to come into this forum and make an official statement that conflicts with, or modifies, the statements made by UL in the IAEI magazine's "UL Corner," let that person come forth.

I have also explained the UL testing procedures. The absolute worst thing a CFL could do is ignite the vapors within the fixture - and the fixture is tested by deliberately causing such an explosion. You could have a mouse in there, striking matches, and not increase the danger a whit.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
You could have a mouse in there, striking matches, and not increase the danger a whit.

mousewmatchesth.jpg


"Shhh!"
 
I have also explained the UL testing procedures. The absolute worst thing a CFL could do is ignite the vapors within the fixture - and the fixture is tested by deliberately causing such an explosion.

Really?! So you claim that Class I, Division 2 fixtures - which is over 85% of the total hazardous area and supplied fixtures therein - are tested by deliberately causing an internal explosion? :cool:
 

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
I still maintain that installing CFL's in a haz loc fixture is not an NEC violation.

The only approach to claiming a violation is to say they are not covered by the listing and labelling. I have already reported official statements by UL that they did not see a problem.

Another poster is asserting that someone from UL told him different. If a UL spokesman wishes to come into this forum and make an official statement that conflicts with, or modifies, the statements made by UL in the IAEI magazine's "UL Corner," let that person come forth.

I have also explained the UL testing procedures. The absolute worst thing a CFL could do is ignite the vapors within the fixture - and the fixture is tested by deliberately causing such an explosion. You could have a mouse in there, striking matches, and not increase the danger a whit.
How could I have missed this thread ;)

My personal experience is more in line with the note from UL?s Ms. Reese.

Unless, the ?blanket statement? is documented in the product standards or the UL Whitebook, including the Marking Guides, it is unlikely that UL will actually hold itself to any statement ? even a written one in a general IAEI document - especially with regard to Hazardous Location applications.

So far, it isn?t in those documents that a CFL may universally re-place incandescents, Hazardous Location or not. Simply search for compact fluorescent in the latest Whitebook or specifically see the UL Category Code IEUQ, Luminaire Conversions, Retrofit or Notes 66 and 67 of the Luminaires Marking Guide.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Looking at other posts by the same person, I do not believe this person has identified themselves as Ms. Reese or as a UL spokesperson - they've simply added a name and phone number to their post. Perhaps I misunderstood - and if the poster is speaking on behalf of UL, I would appreciate a clear statement to that effect.

As for the question: Does UL really, deliberately cause explosions within the test samples? I can categorically say that yes, they do. I've seen it. Indeed, they do it with several gasses, and various mixtures- from 'lean' to 'rich,' and including 'ideal.' They do their absolute best to blow the things up. I've been in their lab, and have witnessed failures.

Ditto for their temperature measurements on the outside of the samples. After all, the enclosure wouldn't matter if they were hot enough to ignite the fumes anyway. They test them is as disadvantageous a circumstance as they can arrange: dry, dirty, weathered, painted - and, in the case of lights, with as big a bulb as they can cram in there.

Assuming a product has a marking along the lines of "60W TypeA bulb," UL has limited that fixture to a 60 watt bulb. UL has also -in the statements I have reported - accepted that the use of CFL's in place of "type A incandescents' is not an issue, assuming the actual wattage is 60 watts (or less) and the bulb fits without modifying the fixture.

Larry, thank you for the mouse pic :)
 

natfuelbill

Senior Member
....
Assuming a product has a marking along the lines of "60W TypeA bulb," UL has limited that fixture to a 60 watt bulb. UL has also -in the statements I have reported - accepted that the use of CFL's in place of "type A incandescents' ....
:)

Can you provide UL documentation of how "UL has also acceptedthe use of CFL's"?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
It is past time for the fixture manufacturers to list their products as being CFL compatible.

I don't believe the recessed can manufacturers will ever list them as they have cans specifically made for the PLC type CFL's.
 

natfuelbill

Senior Member
"Looking at other posts by the same person, I do not believe this person has identified themselves as Ms. Reese or as a UL spokesperson - they've simply added a name and phone number to their post."

Do you also belong to the flat earth society?

To put your mind at ease, I assure you that I did not make up this response from UL.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
It blows my mind that this is even a question.

It seems very clear to me that a hazardous location fixture must be used per instructions and if there is no mention of a CFL then a CFL cannot be used.

I also ask renosteinke to provide the blanket statement that you can use CFL's in any fixture designed for 'ordinary' bulbs, as long as you do not exceed the actual watt limitations of the fixture'.

I know I would never personally use a CFL in an explosion proof fixture without documentation from the manufacturer that it was acceptable.
 

GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
I don't believe the recessed can manufacturers will ever list them as they have cans specifically made for the PLC type CFL's.
I think there are 2 different issues here. California has some requirements for energy efficient lighting which won't allow the substitution of a "traditional" incandescent. Thus the special base. I talked to the EC finishing my father-in-law's condo in Santa Rosa, and he said that then (this was about 15 years ago) the use of traditional Edison base with a CFL did not meet the requirement.

They can OK CFLs without hurting themselves ... the minor replacement market is the only time it wold come up.

While it has been mentioned, I've never seen a definitive answer to my question ... are CFLs approved for base up operation. Some early ones specifically said base down only. I've not seen cans that handle lamps in a base down configuration.
 
I think there are 2 different issues here. California has some requirements for energy efficient lighting which won't allow the substitution of a "traditional" incandescent. Thus the special base. I talked to the EC finishing my father-in-law's condo in Santa Rosa, and he said that then (this was about 15 years ago) the use of traditional Edison base with a CFL did not meet the requirement.

They can OK CFLs without hurting themselves ... the minor replacement market is the only time it wold come up.

While it has been mentioned, I've never seen a definitive answer to my question ... are CFLs approved for base up operation. Some early ones specifically said base down only. I've not seen cans that handle lamps in a base down configuration.

Interesting point comes to mind. If the incandescent bulbs are 'outlawed' and they will not be available after the grace period, what happens to ALL those fixtures that are only tested and approved for use with incandescent use?! I am not only talking about HazLoc fixtures either........The other question is why do manufacturers keep selling incandescent only fixtures if a vital consumable will be unavailable
 

natfuelbill

Senior Member
from Crouse-Hinds

"Hi Bill,

The compact fluorescent lamps are not allowed to be used in any incandescent fixtures only the rated incandescent lamp can be used in any incandescent fixture. The reason is that the T-Ratings will not be correct on the fixture labeling (code violation) and the UL testing will be void along with any warranty that may exist.

Compact fluorescents lamps can only be used in the listed fluorescent fixture with the approved compact fluorescent lamp.

Respectfully,

Joe Geswaldo

Sales Application Specialist

Phone: 866.764.5454 ext. 3005

Fax: 315.477.5528

Wolf & 7th North St.

Syracuse, NY 13221

Email: Joseph.Geswaldo@cooperindustries.com

Web: http://www.crouse-hinds.com/"
 
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