E-Stop wiring for a package Hot Tub in Residential Duplex

[clarice]

Hi Guys - since my project is a residential duplex and not a single family dwelling I think I need a 680.41 E-Stop. I'm thinking a switch is the easiest but I was wondering if I could use a momentary push button to trip the GFCI....this is probably a bad idea.....I just thought a pushbutton would be easier in an emergency.

 

[iwire]

Is the hot tub available for both tenants or is it inside one of the units?

And no you cannot use a GFCI as a disconnecting means unless it is listed for that use.

I would look to just kill the control circuit for the motor that runs the recirculating pump.

 

[clarice]

Duplex Hot Tub

Duplex Hot Tub

The Hot Tub is outside. The intended use is for one family (it is on their deck) but there it is open to the other unit.

The material house sent me a pushbutton E-stop with one normally closed terminal and one normally opened....I was trying to figure out how to use it in this situation. I have a 2 pole 50 amp feed on #6......I guess this stop is intended for a contactor....But

 

[clarice]

Learning Opportunity

Learning Opportunity

I'm trying to learn from this situation....I am actually rewiring an unlicensed installation....I think I almost have it but the E-Stop threw me....if I use the switch I guess I can Label it -,EMERGENCY - The push button is very clear...

 

[clarice]

Can I wire the NC & NO pushbutton to Kill the control circuit ....

Can I wire the NC & NO pushbutton to Kill the control circuit ....

Is it possible to use the pushbutton to kill the control circuit...How do I wire it?

 

[clarice]

Is the hot tub available for both tenants or is it inside one of the units?

And no you cannot use a GFCI as a disconnecting means unless it is listed for that use.

I would look to just kill the control circuit for the motor that runs the recirculating pump.

Can I kill the control circuit from the NC NO pushbutton? How do I wire that?

Help!!!

 

[acrwc10]

You may have building code issues with it not being fenced off from other tenants I would check with the building dept. on that first. It may cure your other issue.

 

[clarice]

Building Code

Building Code

The property is fenced, but the classification is clearly not single family.

I'm really want to know how to use the e-stop NC/NO to kill the motor.....whether I need to or not!

I'm a nerd....

 

[acrwc10]

The property is fenced, but the classification is clearly not single family.

I'm really want to know how to use the e-stop NC/NO to kill the motor.....whether I need to or not!

I'm a nerd....

the property being fenced does not mean the spa is fenced in, notice in an apartment complex there is a secondary fence around the pool. You can not assume a neighbors child will not have access to it.

 

[clarice]

good point on fence....i will check Hawaii Code

good point on fence....i will check Hawaii Code

Do you have thboughts on wiring the e-stop? HELP!!!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think you probably need a contactor to shut it down with an E-stop unless you can interrupt the cir. that feed the jets & recirculating pump.

 

[clarice]

Interupt the circuit without a contactor?

Interupt the circuit without a contactor?

Can my e stop interupt the circuit on the control board? I have 4 terminals on the e-stop: 2 for the N/C side and 2 for the N/O side.....the conduit from the e-stop box goes to the control panel of the Hot Tub. Can you tell me in general what I should do? I'm thinking control wires that go from my momentary switch (e-stop)....in the un-pushed position one terminal set is closed....when pushed it is the opposite until released.....

This is probably obvious but I need the basics!!!!!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Can my e stop interupt the circuit on the control board? I have 4 terminals on the e-stop: 2 for the N/C side and 2 for the N/O side.....the conduit from the e-stop box goes to the control panel of the Hot Tub. Can you tell me in general what I should do? I'm thinking control wires that go from my momentary switch (e-stop)....in the un-pushed position one terminal set is closed....when pushed it is the opposite until released.....

This is probably obvious but I need the basics!!!!!

It can interrupt anything that will cut the flow of electricity to the pump and blower. I am really not sure that the emo button cannot just trip the GFCI.

 

[iwire]

It can interrupt anything that will cut the flow of electricity to the pump and blower.

Dennis, are there usually relays or contactors that pull those motors on?



clarice, if Dennis answers yes a maintained contact mushroom-head button that opens the control circuit (the power to the relay coils) should be quick and easy.

I am really not sure that the emo button cannot just trip the GFCI.

I would be very interested in how that could be legally wired.

Another option is a shunt trip breaker on the feeder.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I haven't wired one in a while where I had been inside the box. My recollection is that everything was electronic with boards etc. I don't remember seeing relays.

I was thinking you could run the neutral thru the emo and short it to ground??? Why would that not be legal.

 

[iwire]

I was thinking you could run the neutral thru the emo and short it to ground???

First I would not consider that a reliable method to open the circuit. A ground to neutral connection will not always trip a GFCI.

Why would that not be legal.

250.24(A)(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections. A grounded conductor
shall not be connected to normally non?currentcarrying
metal parts of equipment, to equipment grounding
conductor(s), or be reconnected to ground on the load side
of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise permitted
in this article.

 

[hurk27]

First I would not consider that a reliable method to open the circuit. A ground to neutral connection will not always trip a GFCI.

But maybe a resistor thru the EGG button from the hot to ground would.

The only other way would be a simple contactor and a start stop type circuit, or as mention a shunt trip.

But why use the push button? the code does not require it, all that is needed is a disconnect within sight located no closer then 5' away?
Use a pull out type and save cost.
Or use a spa packaged one with the GFCI in it, and just keep it within sight, then you will already have the GFCI breaker.

 

[iwire]

But maybe a resistor thru the EGG button from the hot to ground would.

If I was inspecting it I would cite 110.3(B).

But why use the push button? the code does not require it,

That is up in the air if it is in a shared common area of two units.

 

[hurk27]

I have seen a hot tub that had terminals labeled for EMG cut off, to be wired to just an on/off switch, it had a jumper in place that you would remove.

But remember most hot tubs will power back up if power is removed and then restored, they do this for the cold areas where the tub has to maintain the water temperature to prevent it from freezing, encase power is lost while the home owners is away on vacation.

The above is also one of the most likely reasons for heater element failure, when a home owner empties the hot tub to clean it, then restores power before it is filled back up with water, very big mistake.

 

[hurk27]

If I was inspecting it I would cite 110.3(B).

Agreed



That is up in the air if it is in a shared common area of two units.

680.41 says:

A clearly labeled emergency shutoff or control switch

Is not a disconnect listed as a switch?