What??? Not 100???

[K8MHZ]

I marked it wrong and he became livid. Shouting profanity laced comments.

Although I stated that I agreed that his answer was correct, I will also agree that the student went overboard.

I mentioned several times that I, on many occasions, challenged my teachers. Never once did I shout or use profanity.

I would say to give him the 100 percent on the test, but he still needs to answer for his behavior. If I would have did this as a cub, I assure you I would have been brought in front of the NJATC board for a hearing. I ended up there for much less of an infraction involving a real moron of a journeyman I got stuck with.

 

[kwired]

And just because the teacher is smart does not mean he knows everything.

Teaching by example is far more effective than being a talking textbook.

To me, 100 percent is at least twice as good as 99 percent. How many people do you know that have framed and hung on the wall exam scores of 99 percent? Yet, it's quite common to see them with a 100 percent score. I doubt I would have framed my final year results if I only got a 99 on my exam. I did frame it because of my #1 status and my 101 percent grade on my final.

There is nothing wrong with striving for excellence. Expecting perfection is not realistic. There are too many people out there that have been blessed with the ability to do well in most things they do and when they do have a failure or setback of some kind, they take it like the world is ending.

I don't remember any test scores from school. I'm sure I had some 100% scores - maybe some higher with bonus questions, but I have also missed some. It no longer matters what they were. I don't even remember what my score was on my journeyman or contractor license exams. Does it make me a better electrician if I get a perfect score? If I get a perfect score does that mean that as an electrician I should never make any mistakes? The important thing is what was learned not the score, keeping in mind the goal of a degree or a diploma needs consideration but I doubt was endangered much by 1% difference of this test score.

There is nothing wrong with contesting the answer - in a friendly willing to learn manner.

This kid is going to face decisions sometime that are much more important than this one test question. Sometimes there will be no right or wrong answer but will still be consequences to the decision that is made.

Another thing that is done in schools that is a good example here is music, althetics and academic competitions.

One of the most overlooked goals of these events that I see nowadays is good sportsmanship. Many of these events are regulated, scored, judged, etc by human beings that are not perfect. The rules of the event usually require to abide by the judges rulings, there may be ways to dispute but are usually well defined.

I don't really care either way if the instructor decides to change the score or if the student or instructor was right. What is important here is that it was learned that one little detail sometimes can make a difference. Sometimes that one little detail will have a lot more important issues depending on it.

 

[sameguy]

Keep in mind if you had given the 100% his out burst if any would be GREAT not ^&$%#$%&. You have some part in this too. He needs to grow up a bit.
When I took my test J.W. I.B.E.W. they would not give us our test score, due to one (me) student had out scored every one so bad that they just gave the entire class clamback tickets when the tickets were for the highest score only.
I also missed one question on my entry exam into the I.B.E.W. and still do not know what it was, but was ready to fight for it.
I only got a 83 on my masters, the City wouldn't say what I missed and wondered why I cared; I passed!... So I could brush up on the missed items??

 

[G._S._Ohm]

For me, this student and his perfectionism is a toss-up between
http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Obsessive-compulsive-personality-disorder.html
and
http://www.mental-health-today.com/narcissistic/dsm.htm

But he's in good company because many world leaders have these disorders. What bothers me the most is their sense of entitlement.

 

[bob]

Straynote6

Your Correct answer = Papp = IV
His correct answer: IV

I think the question was not presented very well. Too much emphasis on formula writing. I would like to suggest you admit to confusion and give the guy a 100. But he has acted like an ass and maybe you would not feel so forgiving.

 

[USMC1302]

FWIW, I think this brings up a point I see all too often. The question may not have been clear, but really in a school setting students should be taught to always write out the formula/equation, show their work and carry units or perform "dimensional analysis"(I think that's what it was called back then). When using formulas, conversion factors, etc it is too common for people to start number crunching without really knowing what the end result should be. When a mistake is made with nothing written down and no units, it is impossible to go back and trace through.

 

[K8MHZ]

FWIW, I think this brings up a point I see all too often. The question may not have been clear, but really in a school setting students should be taught to always write out the formula/equation, show their work and carry units or perform "dimensional analysis"(I think that's what it was called back then). When using formulas, conversion factors, etc it is too common for people to start number crunching without really knowing what the end result should be. When a mistake is made with nothing written down and no units, it is impossible to go back and trace through.

Here is my take, both as a teacher and a student, about 'showing your work'.

I was blessed with at a young age the ability to do math in my head. It wasn't until I entered the advanced math program that I ever needed anything but. Even so, my 'work' was indecipherable notes with the rest being done with a slide rule and in my head. Forcing me to write down work I could easily do in my head was not teaching, it was a battle of egos. My teachers couldn't believe I could to the work in my head mostly because they couldn't.

I had teachers that would mark my correct answers wrong because there was no 'work' to look at, which did not fare well with my parents and the teacher got blasted by them during the PTA meetings because of that. In addition, I usually found faster, easier ways to come up with answers than the methods taught in class. I think what really pissed them off was the fact I could blast through a test in a couple minutes, get scores in the 90s, while the rest of the class labored for nearly the entire 50 minutes to complete the tests.

Once I got accused of cheating, specifically copying, because I showed absolutely no work at all on a test. When the ego battle ensued, the teacher could not tell me how it was possible to cheat and be the only one in the class with a perfect score.

I encourage my students to do math in their heads. If they are good at it, I see no point in forcing them to write stuff down. If they are not so good at it, I teach them how to estimate in their heads and jot down what they think is close. Then, at their option, I teach them to punch out the figures on a calculator with or without writing anything down. If the two answers are very close, there is a 90 percent the calculated answer will be correct. If they are way off, there is about a 50 percent chance the calculated answer is correct and it's time to re-think the problem before the answer is given.

So far, it's worked very well. I have a 'perfect score' in that, over an on and off period of six years, every student that completed my classes passed the FCC Technician Class Amateur Radio Operator exam on the first try.

Think about this: If you design a circuit and you screwed up something because you made a math error, would showing your work keep it from failing, perhaps catastrophically?

If 'showing the work' is a means that the student is comfortable with, certainly, that is the way it's done.

I also inform the students that are good in math that showing the work is a bit of an insurance policy as some teachers will give 'half credit' if they like the work they see, even if the answer is wrong. With no written work, wrong is wrong.

There is no set way to teach people math as each person has different fortes. It's best to be flexible with the focus on the answer, not the means during a test, and teach different approaches to the answer in the class.

 

[USMC1302]

If you are comfortable doing it in your head, that's fine. I'm thinking more toward real world scenarios where it's not school, and a lot can be riding on what your answer is. Example: Concrete slab needs to be 82'x96'x6 ", how many cubic yards of concrete needed?(disregard waste,etc). I'd rather err on the safe side and write it out

 

[USMC1302]

I do wholeheartedly agree on teaching different approaches to solving problems. When faced with an answer that also asked for a tolerance of 5% plus/minus most people(myself included) would have multiplied the answer by .05 and add or subtract from the base answer. I never had been taught or even thought about just multiplying by .95 and 1.05.

 

[K8MHZ]

If you are comfortable doing it in your head, that's fine. I'm thinking more toward real world scenarios where it's not school, and a lot can be riding on what your answer is. Example: Concrete slab needs to be 82'x96'x6 ", how many cubic yards of concrete needed?(disregard waste,etc). I'd rather err on the safe side and write it out

As that the skill seems to wane with age, at this point in my life I would use a calculator, still no need to write anything down unless I felt that I may need to come back to it later, and then it would be just the answer. However, I do know that there are people that could easily and flawlessly figure out a simple problem like that in their heads and I used to be one of them. Looking at the problem the biggest hurdle would be that one side of the equation is expressed in linear feet and the other is expressed in cubic yards. I'll bet that if you gave that question to 100 people there would be many that missed it because they either failed to notice the difference or did not know how to make the conversion properly, neither of which would benefit from anything being written down.

 

[icefalkon]

I'm an instructor and educator for quite some time here...while I agree that perhaps some lee way may have been given due to the fact that the student performs above and beyond the average...perhaps his answer was a typo...When it comes down to the brass tacks...the student did not answer the question correctly. When asked to write the FORMULA for apparent power...the answer IV is not sufficient. That is all there is to say about it. IV does not represent the question, to me...the answer of the roman numeral 4 don't cut it. At that stage of the game it should be absolute that the proper method of notating formulas is to write them in scientific notation.

Then, to add insult to injury...the student has a public outburst like that...yelling profanity?? I can sincerely tell you this...it would NOT be tolerated in our local. I don't care how "smart" one may think themselves to be, there is a right and wrong way to go about things. I also have a problem with critiquing the instructor discretely with commentary like, "...not everyone is a good teacher." There are different levels of teaching skill, and because one student...decides to make noise does not make that student "right" and the instructor "wrong". Nor do I believe that is the right of any person on this forum to criticize the methods of an individual instructor without visually or verbally seeing him/her in action.

Just my $.02.

 

[K8MHZ]

I do wholeheartedly agree on teaching different approaches to solving problems. When faced with an answer that also asked for a tolerance of 5% plus/minus most people(myself included) would have multiplied the answer by .05 and add or subtract from the base answer. I never had been taught or even thought about just multiplying by .95 and 1.05.

How about the fact that the total of the tolerance is 10 percent? That makes figuring much easier. Let's say the question was 2 x 15 with that tolerance? The thirty is easy. Ten percent of that is three. Half of three is 1.5. So now all we have to do is to add and subtract 1.5 from 30 to get the answer. 28.5 to 31.5. Head check, does 28.5 plus 3 equal 31.5? Head check passed, answer correct.

There is a bit of an art to being able to do this, the most important is the ability to be able to break the problem down into figures that are easy to work with, as I illustrated above. That will only come with practice, and lot's of it. I think that kids should be taught how to do this as soon as the start to learn math.

 

[K8MHZ]

When asked to write the FORMULA for apparent power...the answer IV is not sufficient. That is all there is to say about it.

If the definition of 'formula' was taught in class, I would agree with you. If not, you have to realize that there is no set rule that a formula has to be in the form of an equation.

Now, if I were to mark the answer incorrect it would be because of the fact that two different lexicons were used in the answer. To me, the answer should have either been 'IE' or 'AV' and I would have indicated such as my reason for marking the question incorrect.

 

[K8MHZ]

Actually, the more I think about this, I would not accept Papp=IV as a correct answer. 6I times 4V = what? 24IV? Since the question asked for 'P', the answer should have been EI. If you asked for watts, the answer would have been VA.

IV means intensity (a description of a form) times volts (a quantity). Intensity is expressed as a number, any number, of amperes and electromotive force is expressed as a number, any number, of volts. Thus, my feeling is that they are not interchangeable.

So, if I wanted to be a dick and mark the question wrong full knowing the student proved that he knows how to figure out apparent power, that's the approach I would take.

HOWEVER, if I did do such thing, the difference of the two expressions would have been covered in class and my expectations made very clear.

 

[icefalkon]

Great post Mark! You hit it on the head exactly there. I was doing the same thing in my head...looking at the question posted for possible variations to see if it can be construed incorrectly in one way or another. I think the question could have been written out better...in a manner that would isolate the number of variations in the answer. That happens all the time with "fill in" questions! There are often many ways to write the answer down in the blank...which leaves an opening for, "...well you asked me the question wrong...so I want my answer validated"...

 

[K8MHZ]

Great post Mark! You hit it on the head exactly there. I was doing the same thing in my head...looking at the question posted for possible variations to see if it can be construed incorrectly in one way or another. I think the question could have been written out better...in a manner that would isolate the number of variations in the answer. That happens all the time with "fill in" questions! There are often many ways to write the answer down in the blank...which leaves an opening for, "...well you asked me the question wrong...so I want my answer validated"...

Thanks.

What I did was to look for the lowest common denominator which in this case was 2. Then I look for the highest common denominator which in this case was 15. Yuck. Next on the list, 10. Cool. Now we have two common denominators that are very easy to work with mentally.

When I was taught how to figure LCD and HCD, my teacher never told me that if I learned it well, it would help me figure stuff out in my head. In fact, I never really thought about it until I had to try to explain how I did the problem.

I know if I had been given an application I could relate to I would have learned much quicker due to curiosity and interest.

Oh, and to be precise, I only used the method of looking for, not the actual application of common denominators, just lowest and highest, not really common. If I hit a real common denominator it's even easier.

 

[USMC1302]

Mark:
I like the way you approach these problems, and agree students should be taught there are different ways to reach the same result. I must still disagree with your opinion that in my example earlier writing it down would not help. I participate annually with a local middle school's "Math Fair" where different occupations meet with students to discuss how math is used in everyday life. My point is really about evaluating the answer and ensuring the "units" are correct. You were spot on that a lot of people would blow through and get tripped up by the units.Writing them down and converting as you go needs to be emphasized more due to this.

 

[K8MHZ]

Here is another little trick.

Cubic feet to cubic yards.

81 divided by 27. Yuck!!

81 divided by 9, then 9 divided by 3. Answer: 3

 

[icefalkon]

LOL that's a cool way to remember the conversion Mark! Why didn't I have a math guy like you as a friend growing up instead of hell raisers and beer drinkers? LOL

 

[mivey]

...instead of hell raisers and beer drinkers?

Those guys knew math...they just focused on a different application. Just short one of them a beer when splitting a case and you will find out how quick they could do the math.